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Old July 5 2008, 08:22 PM   #61
MattJC
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

I think he was responding to my post about Abrams living vicariously through Trek. And I was being serious about that.
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Old July 6 2008, 06:54 AM   #62
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
Whoa...you are veering off what I was meaning.
Understood. I was simply expanding on it with my own thoughts on the matter.

All I was saying that Abrams should make the movie going on what he and his partners think would make a good movie. They got hard-core fans to people who know little about it on their production staff. That is probably a good thing.
I agree completely that Star Trek needed a fresh mind behind it. And, I'm not an Abrams hater. I've enjoyed much of his television work. I simply think he's gone the wrong direction with this, and I think somebody more familiar with the product might recognize that. But then, given how many people here seem to think spending $150 on a franchise film that has never even come close to making that kind of money is a good idea.... maybe not.
The thing I like about how this project is heading is that on the creative side, they have TOS & TNG fan (Abrams), a hardcore/watches everything (Orci or Kurtzman...I can't remember which), and someone fresh to the franchise (Lindelof). From a movie-making standpoint, I think this is a strong combination to have and can balance out the creative side of things.

For the record, I am neither an Abrams hater nor lover. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now until I actually see something.

I'm not saying that it's not possible for a Sci-Fi movie to draw big numbers. I simply don't think Trek is the vehicle to do it with. At least, not right now.
Perhaps not. My only hope is that it does "well enough." Personally, I am more interested in if the movie will be entertaining.

On a side note (and at risk of opening a can or worms), I don't get how Star Wars can make a bajillion dollars, but Trek can't.

Transformers had a couple of things going for it. First, this was the first live action version of it, so longtime fans of the cartoons and comics had good reason to want to see what this was all about.

Second, and I believe more importantly, Transformers never had the baggage that Star Trek has. I've said this before, I'll say it again now. Everybody knows Star Trek. Everybody has an opinion on it. Most of those opinions are negative, despite the fact that most people who have those opinions have never watched an episode or seen a movie.
Well, I was just using it as a throwaway example. Perhaps Batman or Star Wars would make for a better comparison?

Trek can reinvent itself however it wishes, but I simply don't believe enough time has passed to allow society to distance itself from what it perceives Trek to be.
Perhaps...I guess it depends on when society last perceived Trek. Was it in 2005, the end of ENT (which, by that time, it was pretty much the fanbase watching) or 2002 with Nemesis (a wider-release product).


MattJC wrote: View Post

Seriously, I think Star Wars fan Abrams is living vicariously through Star Trek.
Sure, pal. Whatever you say.
For the record, I was joking when I said that.
I was referring to Matt, but noted.
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Old July 6 2008, 12:41 PM   #63
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Tulin wrote: View Post
^ rre:Your bumpersticker: Actually there is a verse in the Bible that refers to the "sphere" of the Earth.

Just saying.
The idea that people once thought the Earth was flat is something of a myth.

From Wikipedia:

The modern belief that especially medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth.[1] In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.[2] Several scholars[3] have argued that "with extraordinary [sic] few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat" and that the prevailing view was of a spherical earth.[1]
Also, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH LEVAR BURTON?
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Old July 6 2008, 02:55 PM   #64
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
The thing I like about how this project is heading is that on the creative side, they have TOS & TNG fan (Abrams), a hardcore/watches everything (Orci or Kurtzman...I can't remember which), and someone fresh to the franchise (Lindelof). From a movie-making standpoint, I think this is a strong combination to have and can balance out the creative side of things.
I have no real thoughts on most of the people you mentioned one way or the other. However, I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that Abrams is a TOS and TNG fan. In fact, I'm relatively sure he said he wasn't a fan, but rather a Star Wars fan. Which, is what spurred some of the other comments in this thread.

For the record, I am neither an Abrams hater nor lover. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now until I actually see something.
My decision to not go see this movie has nothing to do with Abrams. I'd have the same position no matter who was heading it up.

On a side note (and at risk of opening a can or worms), I don't get how Star Wars can make a bajillion dollars, but Trek can't.
Marketing, mostly. Exposure, perhaps. It may be kind of hard to convince people they need to pay to see something they've seen for 27 seasons for free.

It should be pointed out that while Episodes 1-3 certainly made a lot of money, 2 and 3 didn't make nearly what Lucas expected. That may be due to the fact that Episode 1 was so bad, or it could simply be genre related.

Personally, I suspect a combination of the two.

Well, I was just using it as a throwaway example. Perhaps Batman or Star Wars would make for a better comparison?
I'm still not sure either had the baggage that Star Trek has. While the Batman franchise was certainly waning by the time Batman and Robin was done, it still never really got to the point where Trek is.

Bad casting and bad scripts hurt Batman more than anything.

Perhaps...I guess it depends on when society last perceived Trek. Was it in 2005, the end of ENT (which, by that time, it was pretty much the fanbase watching) or 2002 with Nemesis (a wider-release product).
It's been a fanbase franchise for a long time. I think you'd at least have to go back to First Contact before you could come up with anything Trek related that really appealed to even a small portion of non-fans. And even that is subject.

You have to adjust for inflation before even one single Star Trek movie squeaks into the top 150 grossing films of all time. That was TMP.

Trek IV barely squeaks into the top 200.

Granted, that's still better than most movies will probably ever do. But, that doesn't exactly make it mainstream, either.

For the record, three of the four 80s-90s era Batman movies made more than Batman Begins when adjusted for inflation.
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Old July 6 2008, 06:13 PM   #65
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
The thing I like about how this project is heading is that on the creative side, they have TOS & TNG fan (Abrams), a hardcore/watches everything (Orci or Kurtzman...I can't remember which), and someone fresh to the franchise (Lindelof). From a movie-making standpoint, I think this is a strong combination to have and can balance out the creative side of things.
I have no real thoughts on most of the people you mentioned one way or the other. However, I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that Abrams is a TOS and TNG fan. In fact, I'm relatively sure he said he wasn't a fan, but rather a Star Wars fan. Which, is what spurred some of the other comments in this thread.
In an old interview, Abrams said that he loved and grew up with Trek, but somewhere, it "disconnected" for him.

For the record, I am neither an Abrams hater nor lover. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now until I actually see something.
My decision to not go see this movie has nothing to do with Abrams. I'd have the same position no matter who was heading it up.
Agreed.

Re: Star Wars
Marketing, mostly. Exposure, perhaps. It may be kind of hard to convince people they need to pay to see something they've seen for 27 seasons for free.
Yeah...that makes sense. I retract my comment.

It should be pointed out that while Episodes 1-3 certainly made a lot of money, 2 and 3 didn't make nearly what Lucas expected. That may be due to the fact that Episode 1 was so bad, or it could simply be genre related.
I was under the impression that Episode III made the most out of the prequels. And I could have sworn the Lucas said that he knew TPM was going to be huge, and the others wouldn't make as much (then, knowing Lucas, it could just be backpedaling).

Bad casting and bad scripts hurt Batman more than anything.
I don't think casting was ever the problem with the Batman films. It was the stupidness they got with the stories they were telling. As much as one may hate Schumacher, I firmly believe if he was allowed to do what he wanted to do w/o studio interference, we would have gotten a pretty good Batman 4. Then again, that would require him to stand up to the studio and probably get fired, so....yeah.

For the record, three of the four 80s-90s era Batman movies made more than Batman Begins when adjusted for inflation.
Shh...don't tell that to the SF&F forum...
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Old July 7 2008, 04:08 PM   #66
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
In an old interview, Abrams said that he loved and grew up with Trek, but somewhere, it "disconnected" for him.
In yet another interview (I don't have the link and don't really have the energy to go searching for it, lol) he said he was more a Star Wars fan than Star Trek. Given the tone of a lot of these interviews, I fear he's gotten into the habit of simply saying what he thinks people want to hear.

I was under the impression that Episode III made the most out of the prequels. And I could have sworn the Lucas said that he knew TPM was going to be huge, and the others wouldn't make as much (then, knowing Lucas, it could just be backpedaling).
I had read an interview somewhere where Lucas was complaining that the movies didn't make as much as expected because he was assured that all theaters would be high end digital by the time they were released and he created the movies for that type of venue. He believed that people were visually let down by the fact that most theaters are still film based and were somewhat turned away.

I'm not 100% sure if he was talking about Ep 2 or 3 (or both) at the time. Ep 3 did make more than the others. And, it made a ton, for sure.

EDIT:

Ep 3 made the most of the prequels at the time, but Ep 1 made more than Ep 3 when adjusted for inflation. $586m to $408m, according to the-numbers.com

I don't think casting was ever the problem with the Batman films. It was the stupidness they got with the stories they were telling. As much as one may hate Schumacher, I firmly believe if he was allowed to do what he wanted to do w/o studio interference, we would have gotten a pretty good Batman 4. Then again, that would require him to stand up to the studio and probably get fired, so....yeah.
I'm sorry, but Kilmer and Clooney were just awful as Batman. But, you're right, the direction they took with the characters and the stories is what really killed it.

For the record, three of the four 80s-90s era Batman movies made more than Batman Begins when adjusted for inflation.
Shh...don't tell that to the SF&F forum...
I know, I know. I'm not supposed to talk about how Casino Royale isn't even in the top 5 of James Bond films when adjusted for inflation or ticket sales, either.
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Old July 7 2008, 07:11 PM   #67
kissthestar
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

It beats living vicariousy through pro-wrestling.
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Old July 7 2008, 07:19 PM   #68
kissthestar
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

How about a new ST series set at Star Fleet academy, or at a scientific outpost, or on Vulcan? Fresh writers, familiar with the ST universe, would be a good idea. My impression is that Enterprise just needed new writers. Seems like many of the Enterprise writers had been at it for a while and need a break. Nothing against them, by any means. After so many years, anyone would feel a bit wrung out.
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Old July 8 2008, 02:23 AM   #69
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
In an old interview, Abrams said that he loved and grew up with Trek, but somewhere, it "disconnected" for him.
In yet another interview (I don't have the link and don't really have the energy to go searching for it, lol) he said he was more a Star Wars fan than Star Trek. Given the tone of a lot of these interviews, I fear he's gotten into the habit of simply saying what he thinks people want to hear.
Oh, I know he says he prefers Star Wars, but I don't think that negates what he said earlier. Preferring Star Wars over Trek and loving Trek are not exclusive, imo. I mean, I love Star Wars, but I prefer Trek.

Ep 3 made the most of the prequels at the time, but Ep 1 made more than Ep 3 when adjusted for inflation. $586m to $408m, according to the-numbers.com
Damn! I didn't realize how much inflation there could be in just 6 years.

I'm sorry, but Kilmer and Clooney were just awful as Batman. But, you're right, the direction they took with the characters and the stories is what really killed it.
Well, I'm one of the few that'll defend Batman Forever, but B&R sucked. However, I think given a decent script to work with, Clooney could have been a decent Batman. I guess we'll never know.

For the record, three of the four 80s-90s era Batman movies made more than Batman Begins when adjusted for inflation.
Shh...don't tell that to the SF&F forum...
I know, I know. I'm not supposed to talk about how Casino Royale isn't even in the top 5 of James Bond films when adjusted for inflation or ticket sales, either.
Hey, that's not fair! At least, I don't remember anyone showing off how much money the CR made based on it's quality (in fact, more people were surprised it got number 2 in the states). More people were praising it because of what it did.

However, CR love was NOTHING compared to the Bat-Love that is in the forum.
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Old July 8 2008, 02:53 AM   #70
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Kilmer gets too little respect. Let's see Keaton try playing Jim Morrison, huh?
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Old July 8 2008, 04:53 AM   #71
Broccoli
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Kilmer gets too little respect. Let's see Keaton try playing Jim Morrison, huh?
While I admit his Batman could have been a bit better (although, it was the first Batman to really get the physical action down), I loved his Bruce Wayne. I thought he did the role perfectly (it reminded me of the BTAS Bruce - which is how I prefer Bruce depicted).
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Old July 8 2008, 03:30 PM   #72
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

All the Batman movies sucked. There, I said it.
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Old July 8 2008, 06:52 PM   #73
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Kilmer gets too little respect. Let's see Keaton try playing Jim Morrison, huh?
Now, hold on. I never said Kilmer wasn't a capable actor. I simply said he wasn't a good choice for Batman.

Clooney wasn't good either, but his acting ability isn't in question.

eh... maybe I was just spoiled by Keaton, who I thought going in would be terrible in the role and ended up being perfect.

The writing for B&R certainly would have made anybody look bad.
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Old July 8 2008, 11:47 PM   #74
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

^I never said that you were saying anything. I was just showing a little love for the Killman, who generally tends to get shafted in discussions of Batman movies.
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