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The Gene Roddenberry Project Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

Moore: No Deep Space Nine Regrets
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

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Free Enterprise Kickstarter
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Sci-Fried To Release New Album
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Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek into Darkness Soundtrack
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Horse 1, Shatner 0
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28


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Old July 4 2008, 08:26 PM   #46
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Many of us enjoy TMP because it's the most cinematic of the Trek films, the most impressive in budget, scope, and atmosphere, whatever its other flaws.
Perhaps. It was certainly visual for the time, there's no denying that.

That's funny, I'm a Gen-X'er, and all of my friends grew up watching Trek in syndication, and were as eager as any Boomers to see new Trek on the big screen.
Fair enough. But, it was still your exposure to TOS that brought you into see the movies. Had you never watched TOS growing up, it's unlikely that you would have rushed out to see the movies.


TNG was a syndicated show that, quite honestly, wouldn't have survived a single season on network television.
Given contemporary demographics-tracking, it most certainly would have. It was the top-rated show amongst 18-49 year old males, IIRC. Classic Trek probably would have survived for the same reason, had they been breaking down the numbers that way back when it was in first run.
Given the gross failure of sci-fi on the big three networks before, during and since TNG's time, I highly doubt it.

Had UPN or The WB been around at the time, perhaps. Voyager lasted 7 years, after all. But, as much as I liked TNG, I really doubt it would have lasted very long on a big three network.

Consider, for a moment, that SeaQuest is the only similar show that survived more than a season since Buck Rogers. You have to look to shows like Heroes (which is more fantasy than sci-fi) to find anything since.

Sci-Fi programing is, quite simply, a niche that people either fall into or don't. Sadly, more don't than do, and we've seen some very good shows come and go because of it.
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Old July 4 2008, 09:45 PM   #47
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

MattJC wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
Yes and he shouldn't.
Yes, starting with those fans who worship the ground Abrams walks on.


I'm not saying people should worship the ground that he walks on, but he wants to make a Trek movie. Listening to the fans is that last thing he should be doing. Being aware of them is good; taking advice from them would be bad.
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Old July 4 2008, 10:04 PM   #48
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
he wants to make a Trek movie..
You mean a Star Wars movie posing as a Trek movie.
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Old July 4 2008, 10:29 PM   #49
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post

I'm not saying people should worship the ground that he walks on, but he wants to make a Trek movie. Listening to the fans is that last thing he should be doing. Being aware of them is good; taking advice from them would be bad.
I actually agree with this to an extent. It became clear to me while Enterprise was on the air that some Trek fans are never happy, even when you give them what they want.

So, to that end, I agree that it would be a big mistake to try to appease every Trek fan with this movie.

By the same token, I think it's also a mistake to think you're going to draw in the non-fan masses with a Trek movie simply because Abrams is involved.

If you've never gone to see a Trek movie, I suspect there's about a 90% chance that you won't be going to see this one, either. So, knowing what your audience expects from a Trek film is fairly important.

I think from a financial standpoint Abrams has made a lot of bad decisions with this movie. I think he's spent way too much money with no name recognition to back it up.

JJ Abrams is not Spielberg or Lucas. He cannot simply slap his name on something and have the masses come running, no matter how much the Hollywood hype machine wants us to believe he is.

Does that mean that this will be a bad movie? No. But, making a good movie has absolutely nothing to do with making a financially successful one.

I've maintained for a while that a successful Star Trek film will be one that understands the demographics of who will and won't see it and working within that. Not wishing the demographics were something different and trying to recreate Trek into something it isn't.
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Old July 4 2008, 10:31 PM   #50
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

MattJC wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
he wants to make a Trek movie..
You mean a Star Wars movie posing as a Trek movie.
Like I said before, it's just a matter of time before we see spoilers of a pre-pubescent Jim Kirk pod racing his way through cornfields in Iowa.
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Old July 4 2008, 10:40 PM   #51
MattJC
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
MattJC wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post
he wants to make a Trek movie..
You mean a Star Wars movie posing as a Trek movie.
Like I said before, it's just a matter of time before we see spoilers of a pre-pubescent Jim Kirk pod racing his way through cornfields in Iowa.
Seriously, I think Star Wars fan Abrams is living vicariously through Star Trek.
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Old July 4 2008, 11:00 PM   #52
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Fair enough. But, it was still your exposure to TOS that brought you into see the movies. Had you never watched TOS growing up, it's unlikely that you would have rushed out to see the movies.
And had there not been a TOS, they wouldn't have made them. They were a spinoff of the TV show, there's no denying that. But more than just a few hardcore, basement-dwelling geeks were catching TOS in the early years of its syndication.

Another factor is the reason why they brought back the series on the big screen instead of on TV as originally envisioned: Star Wars. Star Wars was a huge phenomenon in the late '70s, everyone was trying to cash in by producing a glut of sci fi product. So even people who hadn't watched the TV show might have gone to see the early films, because that's the type of film that people were going out to see in those days.

I should use myself as an example. My deep, dark secret is that I was not a Trek fan in my childhood. Practically everyone I knew watched it, but it never caught on with me for one reason or another. I'd seen it--it was so prevalent in syndication that it was hard to avoid, sometimes it was just on--but probably the first installment of Trek that I deliberately sat through was TMP, on Showtime when they were doing a "sci fi month" that also included Forbidden Planet and The Black Hole. I got it and enjoyed it well enough without knowing much about the show or characters. It was still a few years before I really became a fan. The first of the movies that I saw in the cinema was TSFS, because a Trek-watching friend took me to see it.

Given the gross failure of sci-fi on the big three networks before, during and since TNG's time, I highly doubt it.

Had UPN or The WB been around at the time, perhaps. Voyager lasted 7 years, after all. But, as much as I liked TNG, I really doubt it would have lasted very long on a big three network.

...

Sci-Fi programing is, quite simply, a niche that people either fall into or don't. Sadly, more don't than do, and we've seen some very good shows come and go because of it.
But do we have any reason to believe that TNG wouldn't have pulled the same numbers on a network? It did pull those numbers, there's no denying it. Being the top-rated show amongst two generations' worth of male viewers says that for awhile there, there was a broader audience than the niche that you describe. There's no denying that TNG's audience steadily eroded during the runs of its successors...again, the numbers are there. It was also the highest-ranked hour-long show in first-run syndication, which sparked a boom of first-run syndicated shows in the late '80s and '90s, many of them in the genre.
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Old July 4 2008, 11:24 PM   #53
Broccoli
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post

I'm not saying people should worship the ground that he walks on, but he wants to make a Trek movie. Listening to the fans is that last thing he should be doing. Being aware of them is good; taking advice from them would be bad.
I actually agree with this to an extent. It became clear to me while Enterprise was on the air that some Trek fans are never happy, even when you give them what they want.

So, to that end, I agree that it would be a big mistake to try to appease every Trek fan with this movie.

By the same token, I think it's also a mistake to think you're going to draw in the non-fan masses with a Trek movie simply because Abrams is involved.

If you've never gone to see a Trek movie, I suspect there's about a 90% chance that you won't be going to see this one, either. So, knowing what your audience expects from a Trek film is fairly important.

I think from a financial standpoint Abrams has made a lot of bad decisions with this movie. I think he's spent way too much money with no name recognition to back it up.

JJ Abrams is not Spielberg or Lucas. He cannot simply slap his name on something and have the masses come running, no matter how much the Hollywood hype machine wants us to believe he is.

Does that mean that this will be a bad movie? No. But, making a good movie has absolutely nothing to do with making a financially successful one.

I've maintained for a while that a successful Star Trek film will be one that understands the demographics of who will and won't see it and working within that. Not wishing the demographics were something different and trying to recreate Trek into something it isn't.
Whoa...you are veering off what I was meaning. All I was saying that Abrams should make the movie going on what he and his partners think would make a good movie. They got hard-core fans to people who know little about it on their production staff. That is probably a good thing.

As for what you brought up, bringing in a wider audience, well, that depends how it is ultimately marketed closer to the date. I agree that Trek is really for a niche audience, but I don't see why it can't be break out of that. Hell, if Transformers can reach a large number of people, Trek can shoot for that (note: while it would be awesome, I do not believe that Trek will reach Transformers numbers).

MattJC wrote: View Post
TJinPgh wrote: View Post
MattJC wrote: View Post

You mean a Star Wars movie posing as a Trek movie.
Like I said before, it's just a matter of time before we see spoilers of a pre-pubescent Jim Kirk pod racing his way through cornfields in Iowa.
Seriously, I think Star Wars fan Abrams is living vicariously through Star Trek.
Sure, pal. Whatever you say.
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Old July 4 2008, 11:30 PM   #54
MattJC
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Broccoli wrote: View Post

I'm not saying people should worship the ground that he walks on, but he wants to make a Trek movie. Listening to the fans is that last thing he should be doing. Being aware of them is good; taking advice from them would be bad.
I actually agree with this to an extent. It became clear to me while Enterprise was on the air that some Trek fans are never happy, even when you give them what they want.

So, to that end, I agree that it would be a big mistake to try to appease every Trek fan with this movie.

By the same token, I think it's also a mistake to think you're going to draw in the non-fan masses with a Trek movie simply because Abrams is involved.

If you've never gone to see a Trek movie, I suspect there's about a 90% chance that you won't be going to see this one, either. So, knowing what your audience expects from a Trek film is fairly important.

I think from a financial standpoint Abrams has made a lot of bad decisions with this movie. I think he's spent way too much money with no name recognition to back it up.

JJ Abrams is not Spielberg or Lucas. He cannot simply slap his name on something and have the masses come running, no matter how much the Hollywood hype machine wants us to believe he is.

Does that mean that this will be a bad movie? No. But, making a good movie has absolutely nothing to do with making a financially successful one.

I've maintained for a while that a successful Star Trek film will be one that understands the demographics of who will and won't see it and working within that. Not wishing the demographics were something different and trying to recreate Trek into something it isn't.
Whoa...you are veering off what I was meaning. All I was saying that Abrams should make the movie going on what he and his partners think would make a good movie. They got hard-core fans to people who know little about it on their production staff. That is probably a good thing.

As for what you brought up, bringing in a wider audience, well, that depends how it is ultimately marketed closer to the date. I agree that Trek is really for a niche audience, but I don't see why it can't be break out of that. Hell, if Transformers can reach a large number of people, Trek can shoot for that (note: while it would be awesome, I do not believe that Trek will reach Transformers numbers).

MattJC wrote: View Post
TJinPgh wrote: View Post

Like I said before, it's just a matter of time before we see spoilers of a pre-pubescent Jim Kirk pod racing his way through cornfields in Iowa.
Seriously, I think Star Wars fan Abrams is living vicariously through Star Trek.
Sure, pal. Whatever you say.

Believe whatever you want.
Abrams himself said he prefers Star Wars.
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Old July 5 2008, 04:15 AM   #55
Broccoli
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

MattJC wrote: View Post
MattJC wrote: View Post

Seriously, I think Star Wars fan Abrams is living vicariously through Star Trek.
Sure, pal. Whatever you say.

Believe whatever you want.
Abrams himself said he prefers Star Wars.[/quote]

Just because he prefers it doesn't mean that Trek XI will be Star Wars. I prefer Indiana Jones over James Bond, but I was making a Bond film, it wouldn't have Bond chasing down a lost religious artifact that will bring destruction if the bad guys get it first.

In any event, you may prove to be right in the end. I, however, will not succumb to conspiracy theories until I at least see some footage to judge for myself.
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Old July 5 2008, 05:17 AM   #56
nx1701g
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Meredith wrote: View Post
I think they should make a TV-movie or mini series, i think that would be a better and more accessible than a major motion picture.

How about a couple of mini-series that equate to ab out 1/2 to 3/4 of a season. It could be fun and cost less and with current V production values it would look as good as the generations film.
I agree and like that idea.
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Old July 5 2008, 05:18 AM   #57
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
MattJC wrote: View Post
MattJC wrote: View Post

Seriously, I think Star Wars fan Abrams is living vicariously through Star Trek.
Sure, pal. Whatever you say.

Believe whatever you want.
Abrams himself said he prefers Star Wars.
Just because he prefers it doesn't mean that Trek XI will be Star Wars. I prefer Indiana Jones over James Bond, but I was making a Bond film, it wouldn't have Bond chasing down a lost religious artifact that will bring destruction if the bad guys get it first.

In any event, you may prove to be right in the end. I, however, will not succumb to conspiracy theories until I at least see some footage to judge for myself.[/quote]

Well - to be fair - Captain Kirk is supposedly based on Han Solo and not William Shatner's Captain Kirk...
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Old July 5 2008, 02:21 PM   #58
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

^ Well...this should be interesting....
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Old July 5 2008, 06:42 PM   #59
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Fair enough. But, it was still your exposure to TOS that brought you into see the movies. Had you never watched TOS growing up, it's unlikely that you would have rushed out to see the movies.
And had there not been a TOS, they wouldn't have made them. They were a spinoff of the TV show, there's no denying that. But more than just a few hardcore, basement-dwelling geeks were catching TOS in the early years of its syndication.
No argument. I'm simply saying that even the younger viewers (myself included) who were either not born during the original TOS run or were too young to really remember it were drawn to go see the movies, not because the trailers were cool or because of who directed them, but because they became fans of TOS first.

That's a far cry different from trying to attract people who have never seen Star Trek, which is what Abrams is attempting to do.

Another factor is the reason why they brought back the series on the big screen instead of on TV as originally envisioned: Star Wars. Star Wars was a huge phenomenon in the late '70s, everyone was trying to cash in by producing a glut of sci fi product. So even people who hadn't watched the TV show might have gone to see the early films, because that's the type of film that people were going out to see in those days.
Probably. But, that was a different time. Sci-Fi did well in the theaters back then. It doesn't now.

But do we have any reason to believe that TNG wouldn't have pulled the same numbers on a network? It did pull those numbers, there's no denying it. Being the top-rated show amongst two generations' worth of male viewers says that for awhile there, there was a broader audience than the niche that you describe. There's no denying that TNG's audience steadily eroded during the runs of its successors...again, the numbers are there. It was also the highest-ranked hour-long show in first-run syndication, which sparked a boom of first-run syndicated shows in the late '80s and '90s, many of them in the genre.
Network television doesn't usually have the luxury of sifting through demographics and saying 90% of men like this show or that show. They go by raw numbers. And, I simply don't believe that they were there to support being a big 3 network show.

It's also worth pointing out that many shows benefit from a syndicated schedule because it allows different markets to put shows in different time slots. Networks don't have that luxury either. It will air at a specific time on a specific day every time.

Here in Pittsburgh, TNG was available on a UHF station (which was carried via basic cable in most places) and showed the same episode at least twice a week on Sundays, and showed it again (once) on the following Saturday.

There's no denying that TNG was one of the strongest syndicated offerings at the time. Which, was enough to make Channel 22 (which became our local UPN afficiliate later on) want to show it more often. But, no major network would have ever given it that kind of attention. And, it's unlikely the overall numbers for our market would have been nearly as high had it only aired once a week.

Even at that, TNG was routinely beaten out by other syndicated shows in our market. Non Sci-Fi shows like Mama's Family (sad, but true).
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Old July 5 2008, 06:54 PM   #60
TJinPgh
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Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
Whoa...you are veering off what I was meaning.
Understood. I was simply expanding on it with my own thoughts on the matter.

All I was saying that Abrams should make the movie going on what he and his partners think would make a good movie. They got hard-core fans to people who know little about it on their production staff. That is probably a good thing.
I agree completely that Star Trek needed a fresh mind behind it. And, I'm not an Abrams hater. I've enjoyed much of his television work. I simply think he's gone the wrong direction with this, and I think somebody more familiar with the product might recognize that. But then, given how many people here seem to think spending $150 on a franchise film that has never even come close to making that kind of money is a good idea.... maybe not.

As for what you brought up, bringing in a wider audience, well, that depends how it is ultimately marketed closer to the date. I agree that Trek is really for a niche audience, but I don't see why it can't be break out of that. Hell, if Transformers can reach a large number of people, Trek can shoot for that (note: while it would be awesome, I do not believe that Trek will reach Transformers numbers).
I'm not saying that it's not possible for a Sci-Fi movie to draw big numbers. I simply don't think Trek is the vehicle to do it with. At least, not right now.

Transformers had a couple of things going for it. First, this was the first live action version of it, so longtime fans of the cartoons and comics had good reason to want to see what this was all about.

Second, and I believe more importantly, Transformers never had the baggage that Star Trek has. I've said this before, I'll say it again now. Everybody knows Star Trek. Everybody has an opinion on it. Most of those opinions are negative, despite the fact that most people who have those opinions have never watched an episode or seen a movie.

Trek can reinvent itself however it wishes, but I simply don't believe enough time has passed to allow society to distance itself from what it perceives Trek to be.

More simply put, Transformers never had to change the hearts and minds of the general public. Star Trek does.

MattJC wrote: View Post
TJinPgh wrote: View Post

Like I said before, it's just a matter of time before we see spoilers of a pre-pubescent Jim Kirk pod racing his way through cornfields in Iowa.
Seriously, I think Star Wars fan Abrams is living vicariously through Star Trek.
Sure, pal. Whatever you say.
For the record, I was joking when I said that.
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