RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 144,681
Posts: 5,686,642
Members: 25,658
Currently online: 424
Newest member: haostmuk

TrekToday headlines

Worf Vinyl Bust Bank
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Independent Star Trek Fan Film Awards Announced
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Vulcan Pays Tribute To Nimoy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Rumor Mill: Star Trek 3 Filming Location
By: T'Bonz on Apr 27

Retro Review: Time and Again
By: Michelle on Apr 25

USS Enterprise Model To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Vulcan Nimoy Tribute
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Pegg Writing Kickass Role For Elba
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Galaxy Quest To Become A Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Mulgrew On Voyager Twentieth Anniversary
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Site Forums > TrekToday News Items

TrekToday News Items Discussion of TrekToday news items

 
 
Thread Tools
Old June 28 2008, 03:43 AM   #31
Gertch
Admiral
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TATV really made me long for another TNG style show. But sometimes wanting a thing is much more pleasing than having.
Gertch is offline  
Old June 28 2008, 06:56 AM   #32
TJinPgh
Captain
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

MattJC wrote: View Post
It sucks, but Abrams and cronies don't give a rat's ass what long time fans think.
I suspect you're right. But, unfortunately (for him), those are the only people who are gonna go see this dog.
TJinPgh is offline  
Old June 28 2008, 07:08 AM   #33
TJinPgh
Captain
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Colonel Green wrote: View Post
TJinPgh wrote: View Post
With the exception of Trek IV, which had no real villain, per se, the best Trek movies (2,6 & 8) all had one thing in common. They all had links to the past that made long time Trek fans want to see them.
You left out TVH, the most successful TOS movie. There goes your argument.
I'm guessing you missed the "with the exception of Trek IV" part. IV was more the exception than the rule. Although, 90% of the film had nothing to do with the main enemy of the film (the probe) and was more a throwback to the TOS episodes where they went back in time than anything.

The sad truth is that there have been more Trek movies that were considered bad than good. Yet, all of them except one made money.

The public at large had very little to do with the success of those films. It had far more to do with moderate budgets and a rabid cult following.
TJinPgh is offline  
Old June 29 2008, 02:45 AM   #34
donners22
Commodore
 
donners22's Avatar
 
Location: Victoria, Australia
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

rocketscientist wrote: View Post

Actually, the spin-offs were formally spin-offs of the original show, not TNG. That's why there's Based on ST created by Gene Roddenberry in the credits for DS9, VOY, and ENT, not ST: TNG.
Yet at the same time, I'm sure I recall videos of DS9 and (possibly) Voyager proclaiming that they were from "the universe of The Next Generation".
__________________
Kim: I'm detecting some weird technobabble.
Janeway: A possibly dangerous anomaly that we know nothing about?
Kim: Yeah. I suppose we should steer clear.
Janeway: Ha! Good one, Ensign. Take us in, Mr. Paris.

http://www.fiveminute.net/voyager
donners22 is offline  
Old June 30 2008, 02:29 PM   #35
Sean Aaron
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Send a message via AIM to Sean Aaron Send a message via Yahoo to Sean Aaron
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
With the exception of Trek IV, which had no real villain, per se, the best Trek movies (2,6 & 8) all had one thing in common. They all had links to the past that made long time Trek fans want to see them.

1, 3, 5, 7, 9 & 10 all attempted to create something from scratch that nobody could relate to. 11 is trying to do the same thing.

Every time Trek has tried to go outside the box and create something that they hoped would appeal to the masses by virtue of being able to stand alone (with no back story) they've failed miserably.
Too true -- they did end up sort of trying to shoehorn TNG into the old TOS film format of two principals and destroyed the ensemble nature of the show, whilst running roughshod over any past character development, apparently in an attempt to appeal to people who hadn't followed the shows previously, which was completely idiotic -- I mean who was going to these films?!?

Now the Trek remake, on the other hand, is going to a past of a set of characters before they were represented in shows, so there's not as much baggage and potential appeal beyond the core fans, but if they make something that doesn't appeal to the core fans, then again, what is the point of this venture? We'll just have to wait and see, but I still find it a bit disappointing how the TNG films turned out.

The strongest TOS films for me were those in continuity -- the arc of II-IV which allowed for a lot of character development. I enjoyed VI as a send-off, but it is disjointed from the earlier ones.

TNG films have no ties other than the brief extension of Data to include emotions, which gets dumped very early into First Contact and then conveniently discarded with a single line of dialogue. Ugh.
Sean Aaron is offline  
Old July 1 2008, 02:18 AM   #36
Sir Foxx
Ensign
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

If they were to take the TNG and DS9 cast, put them together with a great story, possibly Dominion/Borg/Unknown storyline, they would have a winner on their hands. Then they could go on from there into the future.

I'm probably going to like Abrams version of Star Trek but I still hate the idea of going backwards instead of forwards as far as the timeline is concerned for the franchise.
__________________
"Loyalty above all else, except Honor"

"I don't know which is worse, that everyone has price or that the price is always so low"--Hobbes
Sir Foxx is offline  
Old July 3 2008, 01:35 AM   #37
TJinPgh
Captain
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

The fact that Voyager took place in another quadrant naturally makes it difficult to tie in a whole lot of their story lines into anything new.

But, I did think they had two story lines that lent themselves to a follow up in our own universe.

The first was the 5th season episode "In the Flesh." That episode established that 8472 had the means and the want to invade Federation space. The episode ended with "Boothby" planning to tell his superiors that the invasion wasn't necessary. We're left to assume that he succeeded. But, it would be simple enough to write a story line where he'd failed.

I always thought that 8472 would look amazing with a similar big screen treatment like they gave The Borg.

The other story line was the 7th season two parter "Flesh and Blood."

The notion of a Federation ship run completely by holograms always seemed interesting to me. It wouldn't need to be a Voyager story necessarily. But, the Doctor's mobile emitter would be helpful.

After Generations when people were speculating on a way to bring Kirk back from the dead, it seemed to me that a holoship might be an interesting way to do it. After all, if they were looking to write the programming of a holographic captain, who would they have more info on than Kirk form which to draw upon.
TJinPgh is offline  
Old July 3 2008, 02:38 AM   #38
Broccoli
Vice Admiral
 
Broccoli's Avatar
 
Location: Broccoli
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
With the exception of Trek IV, which had no real villain, per se, the best Trek movies (2,6 & 8) all had one thing in common. They all had links to the past that made long time Trek fans want to see them.
I'm confused by the use links to the past. Given the movies you listed, and the fact that you call attention to villains, what link to the past the ST6 have? The villain? He was new. Are you talking about themes? Besides the "Kirk hates Klingons", there really wasn't one a link to the past.

1, 3, 5, 7, 9 & 10 all attempted to create something from scratch that nobody could relate to.
Thats a strange thing to say. TMP was the movie for Star Trek at the time. The gang was getting back together after ten years. That is what the fans were wanting: new Star Trek.

TSFS was all about bringing back Mr. Spock. People loved Spock and wanted to see him live. There's your link to the past: Spock!

As for GEN, you must be kidding me that you think there there was no link to the past that Trek fans wanted to see. It was the Kirk meets Picard show; something fans and non-fans alike have been wanting to see since TNG started. There's you link.

I guess I am just confused by what you mean by things that people can relate to. I don't think a "villain from the past" is what makes or breaks a Trek film. Like, I don't think the reason ST2 works for a lot of people is because everyone can relate to having a homicidal maniac after you because you left him on a barren planet. It works because of the themes of friendship, growing older, and readjusting your lot in life.

That and eels squirming in your ear.

MattJC wrote: View Post
It sucks, but Abrams and cronies don't give a rat's ass what long time fans think.
Yes and he shouldn't.

donners22 wrote: View Post
rocketscientist wrote: View Post

Actually, the spin-offs were formally spin-offs of the original show, not TNG. That's why there's Based on ST created by Gene Roddenberry in the credits for DS9, VOY, and ENT, not ST: TNG.
Yet at the same time, I'm sure I recall videos of DS9 and (possibly) Voyager proclaiming that they were from "the universe of The Next Generation".
In technical terms, TNG is a "sequel series" where as DS9 and VGR are spin-offs from TNG. It is credited as "Based Upon Star Trek Created By Gene Rodenberry" probably due to legal reasons and the fact that, technically, they are.
__________________
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." -- Christopher Hitchens
Broccoli is offline  
Old July 3 2008, 02:49 AM   #39
MattJC
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

[QUOTE=Broccoli;1799326]



Yes and he shouldn't.



[QUOTE]

Yes, starting with those fans who worship the ground Abrams walks on.
MattJC is offline  
Old July 3 2008, 05:26 AM   #40
TJinPgh
Captain
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Broccoli wrote: View Post
I'm confused by the use links to the past. Given the movies you listed, and the fact that you call attention to villains, what link to the past the ST6 have? The villain? He was new. Are you talking about themes? Besides the "Kirk hates Klingons", there really wasn't one a link to the past.
Depends on how you look at it.

The Federation was constantly on the verge of war with the Klingons through out the entire run of the series. Far more so than the Romulans, although they certainly had their moments.

I really shouldn't have included Trek 3 in that list, as it simply took that distrust to a new level. You could probably argue that 3 was necessary to make 6 work. It's just that 3 was such a bad movie it's easy to not want to give it credit for anything.

1, 3, 5, 7, 9 & 10 all attempted to create something from scratch that nobody could relate to.
Thats a strange thing to say. TMP was the movie for Star Trek at the time. The gang was getting back together after ten years. That is what the fans were wanting: new Star Trek.
TMP distinguishes itself in no way other than having been the first. It's, by and large, unmemorable for anything else.

As for GEN, you must be kidding me that you think there there was no link to the past that Trek fans wanted to see. It was the Kirk meets Picard show; something fans and non-fans alike have been wanting to see since TNG started. There's you link.
Kirk and Picard getting together is pretty much the only thing that made that movie watchable.

They created Soran from scratch as a reason for them to be together. Frankly, the story they're doing for the new Trek film would have been much better as a storyline for Generations. Although, that would have required Shatner actually be in the film.

I guess I am just confused by what you mean by things that people can relate to. I don't think a "villain from the past" is what makes or breaks a Trek film. Like, I don't think the reason ST2 works for a lot of people is because everyone can relate to having a homicidal maniac after you because you left him on a barren planet. It works because of the themes of friendship, growing older, and readjusting your lot in life.
Well, the fact that TWOK was simply a better written film than most of them aside, I continue to think that many people in these forums grossly over-estimate the degree to which Star Trek is "Mainstream" entertainment.

Sorry, but it is not now, nor has it ever been mainstream. It's always been niche programming at best. Cult programming at the extreme.

The TOS movies made money whether they were good or not (as evident by the fact that only 3 of the 6 are considered good). They did it, not because they appealed to a broad range audience (IV is about as close as it ever came to that), but because it appealed to a bunch of baby boomers who wanted to relive a little bit of their youth.

That, and the fact that TOS never had a proper sendoff.

TNG was a syndicated show that, quite honestly, wouldn't have survived a single season on network television. It managed, somewhere along the way, to shift the age bracket of it's niche a bit, but it was still niche programming.

Two of the four Trek movies were poorly written. One was very good. The other (Insurrection) would probably have received high praise had it followed Generations instead of First Contact. Ultimately, it was a let down with a weak story that would have made a great two part TV episode but only a mediocre movie.

But, TNG already had it's sendoff with All Good Things. The TNG movies were totally unnecessary and it showed.

First Contact worked because it was the Borg that probably saved TNG from the scrap yard to begin with. Had it been any other enemy, it probably would have flopped as well.

Last edited by TJinPgh; July 3 2008 at 02:43 PM.
TJinPgh is offline  
Old July 3 2008, 02:07 PM   #41
Sean Aaron
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Send a message via AIM to Sean Aaron Send a message via Yahoo to Sean Aaron
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
Two of the four Trek movies were poorly written. One was very good. The other (Insurrection) would probably have received high praise had it followed Generations instead of First Contact. Ultimately, it was a let down with a weak story that would have made a great two part TV episode but only a mediocre movie.

But, TNG already had it's sendoff with All Good Things. The TNG movies were totally unnecessary and it showed.
I totally agree with the latter point, but I'm not sure about the former. The only thing I found compelling about Insurrection was seeing the cast back together again and I thought F. Murray Abraham did a great over-the-top villain, but much of the story was total rubbish and not believable. I couldn't accept the premise of the Federation Council approving the plan, proabably because they NEVER SHOWED IT; the idea that the Council would bin the Prime Directive for their own purposes just didn't come off as believable at all.

On top of that the villains were cardboard cutouts with a throwaway reference to the Dominion. Any of the TNG two-parters were superior to Insurrection.
Sean Aaron is offline  
Old July 3 2008, 10:15 PM   #42
kissthestar
Captain
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

Perhaps the best bet would be a movie set in the ST universe and featuring cameos by people from the various ST series, but with a plot chiefly involving a new ship and crew.
kissthestar is offline  
Old July 3 2008, 11:19 PM   #43
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

TJinPgh wrote: View Post
TMP distinguishes itself in no way other than having been the first. It's, by and large, unmemorable for anything else.
Many of us enjoy TMP because it's the most cinematic of the Trek films, the most impressive in budget, scope, and atmosphere, whatever its other flaws.

AsThe TOS movies made money whether they were good or not (as evident by the fact that only 3 of the 6 are considered good). They did it, not because they appealed to a broad range audience (IV is about as close as it ever came to that), but because it appealed to a bunch of baby boomers who wanted to relive a little bit of their youth.
That's funny, I'm a Gen-X'er, and all of my friends grew up watching Trek in syndication, and were as eager as any Boomers to see new Trek on the big screen.

TNG was a syndicated show that, quite honestly, wouldn't have survived a single season on network television.
Given contemporary demographics-tracking, it most certainly would have. It was the top-rated show amongst 18-49 year old males, IIRC. Classic Trek probably would have survived for the same reason, had they been breaking down the numbers that way back when it was in first run.
The Old Mixer is online now  
Old July 4 2008, 03:04 PM   #44
Sean Aaron
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Send a message via AIM to Sean Aaron Send a message via Yahoo to Sean Aaron
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
That's funny, I'm a Gen-X'er, and all of my friends grew up watching Trek in syndication, and were as eager as any Boomers to see new Trek on the big screen.
Ditto. I was born in 1970 and indoctrinated by my mother who was a fan of the syndicated show. My Trek was black-and-white and watched at primetime. I found bits of The Motion Picture boring, but it was cool to see Trek on the big screen and I even bought a programme for all the cool alien stills (who appear for .5ms on screen in the auditorium scene). I quite enjoy seeing the Director's Edition today as it's fresh and new with little or no baggage from any previous films to deal with.

In fact not dissimiliar to what they'll be doing with the new Star Trek picture.
Sean Aaron is offline  
Old July 4 2008, 08:13 PM   #45
TJinPgh
Captain
 
Re: Burton: Fans Want More 'Next Generation'

CaptainSpock wrote: View Post
I totally agree with the latter point, but I'm not sure about the former. The only thing I found compelling about Insurrection was seeing the cast back together again and I thought F. Murray Abraham did a great over-the-top villain, but much of the story was total rubbish and not believable. I couldn't accept the premise of the Federation Council approving the plan, proabably because they NEVER SHOWED IT; the idea that the Council would bin the Prime Directive for their own purposes just didn't come off as believable at all.

On top of that the villains were cardboard cutouts with a throwaway reference to the Dominion. Any of the TNG two-parters were superior to Insurrection.
I always thought that Insurrection was the type of story that would have been the perfect BEGINNING of something as a series concept. You're exactly right in that there was nothing leading up to that and nothing really came of it, so far as we saw. Had this story line happened in a series format, they could have run with it and gone with a story line with a fractured Federation... part of which supported what we saw in Insurrection, part of which followed Picard's line of thinking. It was a good idea, it just didn't work as a two hour film. Too much to tell, not enough time. Nemesis would have been better had they abandoned the whole Shinzon idea, which forced them to focus way too much attention on too few characters. A better story line would have been to simply go with Sela and dealt with it in a more ensemble manner. Troi got some decent airtime but Riker was practically non-existant, as was Crusher. But, again, they went with a movie that was all visual fluff in hopes of getting the casual viewer.
TJinPgh is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.