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Old June 23 2008, 09:26 PM   #31
Samuel T. Cogley
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
But then, as some smart lawyer fellow around here observed many years ago, I don't require that everything I enjoy be identical to everything else I like.
He sounds like a genius, whoever he was!

Dennis is right, of course.

I love Star Trek. And I love BSG.

I don't want Star Trek to turn into BSG. And I don't want BSG to turn into Star Trek.

IDIC, baby! Where's the problem?

BSG has the quality edge (over Star Trek's quantity) for the moment, but that may change in time if TPTB decide to rape the goose that laid the golden eggs like they did with Star Trek.

Then again, BSG doesn't currently look too golden from a financial perspective, but neither did the original Star Trek for years.

Star Trek is like the little girl with the little curl. When it is good, it is very, very good. But when it is bad it is horrid.
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Old June 23 2008, 09:43 PM   #32
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
BSG has the quality edge (over Star Trek's quantity) for the moment, but that may change in time if TPTB decide to rape the goose that laid the golden eggs like they did with Star Trek.
Considering how BSG compared to "Star Trek" in quality terms in, say, the mid-80s clearly any kind of reversal is possible over time.
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Old June 23 2008, 09:48 PM   #33
Samuel T. Cogley
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
BSG has the quality edge (over Star Trek's quantity) for the moment, but that may change in time if TPTB decide to rape the goose that laid the golden eggs like they did with Star Trek.
Considering how BSG compared to "Star Trek" in quality terms in, say, the mid-80s clearly any kind of reversal is possible over time.
Yeah, when I refer to BSG, I am only referring to the current version. (I suppose I should have made that more clear.) The old one never happened, as far as I'm concerned.
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Old June 23 2008, 09:56 PM   #34
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
BSG has the quality edge (over Star Trek's quantity) for the moment, but that may change in time if TPTB decide to rape the goose that laid the golden eggs like they did with Star Trek.
Considering how BSG compared to "Star Trek" in quality terms in, say, the mid-80s clearly any kind of reversal is possible over time.
Yeah, when I refer to BSG, I am only referring to the current version. (I suppose I should have made that more clear.) The old one never happened, as far as I'm concerned.
I was a fan of the old show.
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Old June 23 2008, 10:28 PM   #35
Samuel T. Cogley
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

number6 wrote: View Post
Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
Starship Polaris wrote: View Post

Considering how BSG compared to "Star Trek" in quality terms in, say, the mid-80s clearly any kind of reversal is possible over time.
Yeah, when I refer to BSG, I am only referring to the current version. (I suppose I should have made that more clear.) The old one never happened, as far as I'm concerned.
I was a fan of the old show.
So was I (back in the day), but the new show has so far eclipsed the old show in terms of quality, that I often actually forget it ever existed when I am referring to the current show.

(This is in my own opinion, of course, which is one of those statements that is so obvious, I am loathe even to add it.)
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Old June 23 2008, 11:38 PM   #36
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
BSG is okay. It certainly isn't my favorite series of all time or even now. I got into it in season one and it really was a well paced, tightly written serialized drama but around the second half of season two my interest began to wane and has continued over the last two years.

In all honesty, I've only hung around this long to see how things play out and see some of the long-running questions get answered.

Moore is one of my favorite Trek writers but I do think internet fans go a tad overboard with all the praise they heap upon him. He alone didn't make DS9 great. I think a lot of credit needs to go to Ira Behr. Moore might be a good writer but BSG has shown as a person in charge he has some weaknesses. For one thing, he is not very good at fitting the right amount of material into an hour. He needs to learn to be more efficient. It is ridiculous so much material is cut or that the viewers have to rely on recaps to fill us in on stuff we missed out on. I'm sure other shows have this problem but it isn't as noticeable.

And as far as cliches, BSG has become predictable in its own way. There is no real sense of suspense a lot of the time because you just know if it is dark or depressing that is where the story is headed.
I tend to agree with your assessment. Moore is a good writer and he's done a lot to change the way in which SF will be done on American television; however, he is still prone to the cliches he strives to overcome. While I enjoy nuBSG, I sometimes get frustrated with Moore and Eick in that they seem to be stuck in the television mentality of the "status quo." Yes things get shaken up for a few episodes but return to a pseudo-status quo in the end. This was especially true for the Pegasus arc and the New Caprica arc.

Certain characters remain stagnant, like Lee, for a long stretch and don't seem very effected by the events around them. Also, they tend to allow the characters to function the story rather than the characters dictating the story. In other words, characters just do things rather than it coming out of the character themselves. I find this especially true of the secondary characters more than the main ones. There is no point A to point B just a jump to point Y without any regards to how the character got there. Example, Romo Lampkin.

The one thing that I will bow at the alter of Moore for is that he gave us a commanding officer that was had weak moments and strong moments. Adama feels and breaths less like a Campbell archetype and more like a human being in a difficult situation.
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Old June 24 2008, 01:52 AM   #37
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

number6 wrote: View Post
Samuel T. Cogley wrote: View Post
Starship Polaris wrote: View Post

Considering how BSG compared to "Star Trek" in quality terms in, say, the mid-80s clearly any kind of reversal is possible over time.
Yeah, when I refer to BSG, I am only referring to the current version. (I suppose I should have made that more clear.) The old one never happened, as far as I'm concerned.
I was a fan of the old show.
I watched a large part of it on ABC (I'd pretty much given up by the time Ray Bolger showed up in metallic drag). I was a potential fan for about the first forty-five minutes of the pilot, then I realized how really really really bad the show was conceptually and in terms of the actual writing. By the time they did "Gun On Ice Planet Zero" a few weeks later the awfulness of the thing was confirmed for all time.
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Old June 24 2008, 02:49 AM   #38
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Moore seems to like being small/niche, rather than being more accessable. I guess he wants to follow his 'creative vision' regardless of its profitability.

I like a lot of what he did in Trek, but in my opinion nuBSG is pretty boring. That doesn't mean I like only one 'flavor', only that I really find his unappealing. Now there are a small number of folks who seem to think nuBSG is the best thing EVER, but I ain't one of them.

I don't find it unusual that a writer thinks his own work is the bestest though. It's his (biased) opinion! Lay off the guy!
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Old June 24 2008, 04:36 AM   #39
T'Bonz
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Old BSG was one of the ONLY sci-fi shows of the early 1970s that I couldn't watch. Even "The Starlost" was better.
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Old June 24 2008, 06:12 AM   #40
Augustus
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Photoman15 wrote: View Post
Augustus wrote: View Post
Very true Mr. Moore.
That is why DS9 is my favorite. Nothing else like it among Trek. Certain episodes of TNG, may seem like TOS, may seem like VOY, may seem like ENT. But rarely does an episode of DS9 seem familiar.

Did the Enterprise in TNG ever lose really? The only time I can think of was Data's Day...
They didn't do so well in "Q Who?"
True, I forgot about that one.. I am sure there are a few more...
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Old June 24 2008, 06:22 AM   #41
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

Ronald D. Moore never ceases to amaze me when it comes to bashing the show that helped to give him his start.

TNG, warts and all, will always run circles around DS9 (and nuBSG for that matter...) and every other so-called cutting edge SF shows that could never capture TNG's magic.
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Old June 24 2008, 12:00 PM   #42
dru
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

patlandness wrote: View Post
Ronald D. Moore never ceases to amaze me when it comes to bashing the show that helped to give him his start.
You're either easily amazed or (fortunately) not exposed to RDM much.

If he wants to follow his creative vision without regard for success with building an audience, he should be doing independent projects. His take on Galactica is a massive failure commercially and creatively.

Its failure is only denied by those lacking in intellectual integrity or predisposed to embracing its self-loathing, conspiratorial worldview worthy of a still-embittered Gore voter.
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Old June 24 2008, 02:52 PM   #43
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

T'Bonz wrote: View Post
Old BSG was one of the ONLY sci-fi shows of the early 1970s that I couldn't watch. Even "The Starlost" was better.
"The Starlost"!?

Damn, even I'm not that down on oldBSG.
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Old June 24 2008, 03:55 PM   #44
Yassim
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

patlandness wrote: View Post
Ronald D. Moore never ceases to amaze me when it comes to bashing the show that helped to give him his start.
I think "bashing" is a little strong.

I love my parents, but I had to move out, and I can point out their weaknesses.

RDM has often talked about his love of TNG. You can love something and still be frustrated by it. (All Trek fans should know that by now!)
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Old June 24 2008, 04:48 PM   #45
RobertScorpio
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Re: Moore On 'Star Trek' Clichés And 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'

dru wrote: View Post
patlandness wrote: View Post
Ronald D. Moore never ceases to amaze me when it comes to bashing the show that helped to give him his start.
You're either easily amazed or (fortunately) not exposed to RDM much.

If he wants to follow his creative vision without regard for success with building an audience, he should be doing independent projects. His take on Galactica is a massive failure commercially and creatively.

Its failure is only denied by those lacking in intellectual integrity or predisposed to embracing its self-loathing, conspiratorial worldview worthy of a still-embittered Gore voter.
umm...wow
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