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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 27 2008, 03:35 AM   #46
Vanyel
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
I haven't read any of the Titan books but I think that the in universe reason was that Riker's posting to the Federations flagship was the gold standard for XO's. Then the Dominion War came along, and I'm sure Starfleet decided that the Enterprise crew should stay together, for no other reason than fleet moral.

Then once the War ended, and Starfleet started building new ships as fast as it could Riker either decided it was time to go or he got an order from Starfleet that said take the Titan or eventual become the oldest XO in Starfleet History.
Vanyel: Your explanation makes sense as to why Riker wound up as XO on the Enteprise-E after the D was destroyed instead of receiving his own command. I'll buy that for a dollar! -- RR
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Old June 27 2008, 05:48 AM   #47
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
I haven't read any of the Titan books but I think that the in universe reason was that Riker's posting to the Federations flagship was the gold standard for XO's. Then the Dominion War came along, and I'm sure Starfleet decided that the Enterprise crew should stay together, for no other reason than fleet moral.

Then once the War ended, and Starfleet started building new ships as fast as it could Riker either decided it was time to go or he got an order from Starfleet that said take the Titan or eventual become the oldest XO in Starfleet History.
Vanyel: Your explanation makes sense as to why Riker wound up as XO on the Enteprise-E after the D was destroyed instead of receiving his own command. I'll buy that for a dollar! -- RR
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Ha! All I can afford these days is a chocolate tinfoil-covered dollar! -- RR
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Old June 28 2008, 12:19 AM   #48
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

TighsEye wrote: View Post
Actually, his career plans are not simply his own... the fleet brass has a say in it
Starfleet has more often than not always shown itself to only be ceremoniously military. Mostly in just establishing a rank structure is the only "military" thing about it. Riker's career plans are, indeed, his own.

Remember, this is a time where everyone is happy and works to fulfill themsleves and be happy doing what it is they want to do with their lives. If Riker's fullfillment comes from being second in command for a chunk of his career that's where he can be.
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Old July 1 2008, 12:28 AM   #49
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

rocketscientist wrote: View Post

It's understandable that he turned down the Drake to be the XO on the Federation's flagship, the Enterprise. Maybe even turning down the Ares makes some sense since he was only two years on the Enterprise.

The loss of the Enterprise in GEN, however, could very well be a big ding on Riker's record. The Federation's flagship was taken out by an antique Bird of Prey that it vastly outgunned on Riker's watch, all because Geordi's VISOR was compromised, something that happened before on TNG. Riker, and maybe Picard (for leaving the ship in Riker's hands), deserves some of the responsibility for that screw-up. That may have put him down further on the Captain's list for his first command, despite his laudable achievments, particularly wrt the Borg incursion in BOBW, perhaps Riker's finest TNG moment.
Exactly. He turned down the Drake and the Ares in favour of the Enterprise, and after the Melbourne was destroyed at Wolf 359, I'd imagine he remained on the Enterprise because with so many ships lost in that battle there probably wasn't another command available for a while, not to mention that (as others have pointed out) Starfleet were likely very suspicious of Picard following his experience with the Borg, and so wanted Riker there to keep an eye on him. When the Enterprise-D was lost under Riker's command he was probably court martialed (standard procedure following the loss of a starship) and forced to remain a commander. It makes sense that he would request to be assigned to the Enterprise-E. The events of Insurrection may even have been a blemish on his record as well.
It's therefore not until we get to Nemesis that he's reached a point in his career where he's able to move on and "work without a net" without any outside factors keeping him at a standstill.
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Old July 1 2008, 08:17 AM   #50
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

I'd think the alternating heroics and blemishes in Riker's record would provide a set of broad brackets within which he could either advance or deliberately stall his own career. That is, the course of his promotions and transfers wouldn't be solely dictated by his record; "outside factors" would still regard him as promising material, with plenty of service years left to make use of his potential.

That he was re-offered command twice during the TNG years tells us that Starfleet thought highly of him and respected his decisions. Most of the negative marks would come after this: the Pegasus exposure, the couple of times he lost the Enterprise in battle, and finally the open insurrection against Starfleet and UFP authority. They would be balanced by some of Riker's greatest heroics, however, and not necessarily endanger his career as such: forces supporting him could always quote the heroics, while forces opposing him could quote the foul-ups.

I'd say Riker was master of his own career for the first half of TNG, became a controversial figure for the second half, and turned into a really hot potato when humiliating the entire Federation Council in ST:INS. At that point, but not before, Starfleet finally had to choose between making a hero or a zero out of him, and they chose hero; I doubt Riker could have survived turning down the Titan. He might even be rotting in a prison (or getting counseling or whatever) if he didn't cooperate...

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Old July 1 2008, 04:13 PM   #51
Nerdius Maximus
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

I recently excavated a box of old Official Fan Club Magazines from 1990-1995 from my parents' attic. Jonathan Frakes was asked that very question. His answer: Bad writing.
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Old July 1 2008, 04:17 PM   #52
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

It was definitely Troi. Definitely. That is actually shown in the series by several small hints. For example in The Naked Now there was a quite obvious one. And in the last episode of ENT where he exits the holodeck together with Troi. You can tell me anything but that they looked in love.
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Old July 1 2008, 05:21 PM   #53
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd say Riker was master of his own career for the first half of TNG, became a controversial figure for the second half, and turned into a really hot potato when humiliating the entire Federation Council in ST:INS. At that point, but not before, Starfleet finally had to choose between making a hero or a zero out of him, and they chose hero; I doubt Riker could have survived turning down the Titan. He might even be rotting in a prison (or getting counseling or whatever) if he didn't cooperate...

Timo Saloniemi
I don't think they could ever put a true "hero" of the Federation like Riker in jail. I would assume more that he would just be made to resign
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Old July 1 2008, 05:35 PM   #54
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

Another point to consider. Two out of the three commands offered to Riker ended up destroyed: the Drake in The Arsenal of Freedom, and the Melbourne in Best of Both Worlds, Pt. 2. If Riker had accepted commands one or three, he'd be as dead as Julius Ceasar. As far as we know, the Ares didn't meet a similar fate, unless it's mentioned as a casaulty in the Dominion War in some ep of DSN that I don't recall. -- RR
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Old July 1 2008, 06:00 PM   #55
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

We don't know what fate any of those ships would have had if Riker had been in command
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Old July 1 2008, 06:38 PM   #56
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

I have no idea why I felt this way at the time, but when part one of the Best of Both Worlds originally aired, I was about 14 years old, and an idiot. I desperately hoped that Picard would die, and that Riker would take command of the Enterprise. Maybe it was because Riker was more "Kirk-like," I don't know. Later, as I matured and became less of a tard, Picard became my favorite TNG character.
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Old July 4 2008, 02:37 AM   #57
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Another point to consider. Two out of the three commands offered to Riker ended up destroyed: the Drake in The Arsenal of Freedom, and the Melbourne in Best of Both Worlds, Pt. 2. If Riker had accepted commands one or three, he'd be as dead as Julius Ceasar. As far as we know, the Ares didn't meet a similar fate, unless it's mentioned as a casaulty in the Dominion War in some ep of DSN that I don't recall. -- RR
From Memory Alpha:

In 2379, the Aries was assigned to Star Fleet Battle Group Omega, which was to rendezvous with the USS Enterprise-E when it was attempting to escape from Romulan territory and the Reman warbird Scimitar. (Star Trek Nemesis)
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Aries

TighsEye wrote: View Post
We don't know what fate any of those ships would have had if Riker had been in command
The Melbourne (both of them) was ordered to be part of Admiral J.P. Hansen's task force to stop the cube at Wolf 359. Since only one ship (reportedly the U.S.S Endeavour) managed to escape, it's safe to say that regardless of who the captains were, the starships were not going to survive.

The Drake was ordered to go to Minos to see what happened to the Minosians. Considering how much damage the Enterprise, a sturdy Galaxy-class starship and flagship of Starfleet, took from the Echo Papa 607 weapons system, it's no surprise that the Drake, a Wambundu-class light cruiser, got its ass kicked and was destroyed.
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Old July 4 2008, 08:35 AM   #58
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

In 2379, the Aries was assigned to Star Fleet Battle Group Omega, which was to rendezvous with the USS Enterprise-E when it was attempting to escape from Romulan territory and the Reman warbird Scimitar.
To nitpick, the ship was identified as the Aires, not the Aries. And while the onscreen registry of the Aires was the same as the purpoted registry of the Aries of "Icarus Factor" fame, the latter registry isn't exactly onscreen canon...

Since only one ship (reportedly the U.S.S Endeavour) managed to escape, it's safe to say that regardless of who the captains were, the starships were not going to survive.
Actually, that's by no means certain. Nobody ever states that only one ship would have escaped. Rather, it's stated that (about) 40 ships were summoned to the battle initially, and later it is said that 39 perished. But the final total of ships present might easily have been anything from 40 to a hundred, although with the odds towards the low end, say, 45.

That is, the Melbourne could well have escaped along with a bunch of others, and the dramatic requirements of "The Drumhead" would still have been served. While the Melbourne had to die in "BoBWII" to make a dramatic point there (and "Emissary" actually shows the death), her fate might have been different with Riker in command. Although by in-universe rather than studio logic, Riker would probably have died anyway, perhaps attempting that warp-ramming maneuver he was on the brink of doing with the Enterprise.

Little or no hope for the Drake, I guess. But Riker would probably have been among those beaming down to investigate the automated peddler, and might well have found a way to survive there until Picard's ship came to rescue him... Logically, the peddler should not have treater Riker as a practice target, but rather as a customer, if he beamed down directly to the transmission site like Picard attempted to do.

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Old July 4 2008, 09:03 AM   #59
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

CaptainStoner wrote: View Post
So although we don't tend to think of Riker as exceptionally wise, I think if he were a d20 system character, he would have something like a 15, maybe 16 Wisdom.


My own take on this is simply that Riker looked around (metaphorically) at the recent fates of other Starfleet captains and realized that some pretty awful things seemed to be happening to them. He decided he would rather not tempt fate, thankyouverymuch.

Regarding "Best of Both Worlds": I think it would have been an interesting dynamic if Riker had become captain and Shelby had become his first officer. Think of the interesting storylines that could have sparked!

But I'm just as happy that Picard came through his Borgification in mainly one piece.
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Old July 5 2008, 06:07 AM   #60
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Re: Why didn't Riker accept his own command for so long?

Iamnotspock wrote: View Post
Exactly. He turned down the Drake and the Ares in favour of the Enterprise, and after the Melbourne was destroyed at Wolf 359, I'd imagine he remained on the Enterprise because with so many ships lost in that battle there probably wasn't another command available for a while...
They said in the episode they theorized they would have the fleet back up within a year. As the hero of the Battle with the Borg he would have, as Shelby said, probably had his choice of any ship to command or position in the fleet.
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