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Old June 13 2008, 05:43 AM   #331
Newspaper Taxi
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I've been thinking about it...The recent surge of Borg material is sort of parallel to the fixation on Romulans that followed the Nemesis movie. The Romulan focus wasn't met with much criticism, though, because the Romulans had not had much focus-time in quite a while and even Nemesis itself was a little lacking on Romulan materials.
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Old June 13 2008, 11:30 AM   #332
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Wowbagger wrote: View Post
Hence all the jokes about Gilligan's Island and the Lost island being the same. The similarity of the premise of the two shows has been noted many, many times.

"Borg attack the Alpha Quadrant through a secret passageway in a nebula, only to be found out by Captain Picard and the crew of the Enterprise, which leads a massive Federation counterattack in the Delta Quadrant that fails against the strength of several hundred Borg Cubes, leading (albeit indirectly) to a virtually unopposed assault on the entire Alpha Quadrant by the Borg" is a damn sight closer to Destiny's blurb than, say, Coronation Street's.

I suppose the definition of "eerie" is up to you, but parallel? Heck, yeah.

I do expect Mr. Mack's dialogue will be rather better than Activision's.
If Destiny have the Cardassians attack the Federation during the invasion of Borg space with the Klingons defending their allies along with Species 8472 attacking the Collective then it will be eerie
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Old June 13 2008, 12:00 PM   #333
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Just a rough list of Borg-centric stories
NG# 42 Q WHO ( Borg. Q, Sonya Gomez
NG# 74-75 THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS (Shelby, Borg Wolf 359
GN VOY 10 Ghosts (the Borg Wolf 359
DS9 GN 6 Program 359 [Sisko holoprogram battling Wolf 359
SNW1(NG) Civil Disobedience [Q borg
NG (N) Vendetta
NG# 76 FAMILY
NG# 123 I BORG (Hugh
SNW2(VOY) Seventh Heaven ( Hugh Seven
NG# 152-153,NG (N) DESCENT (Sequel to BROTHERS and I BORG.
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness (Enab, former associate of Hugh
NG DC GN 47-50 The Worst of Both Worlds [borg
SNW VI Spec The Beginning [borg queen
M, N(NG), MS(NG) STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT
SNW VII NG Full Circle [Hawk
SNW3(NG) A Private Victory (Hawk
ENT# 49 REGENERATION ( Borg
NF (N) No Limits Excalibur: Making a Difference [Korsmo First Contact
Star Trek: The Manga: Shinsei Shinsei Side Effects [birth of borg queen
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness ( Hugh of Borg.
N/N(NG)/DS9 (N) The Return ( Borg, Salatrel
Game Borg
VOY# 58 BLOOD FEVER (Vorik. the Borg
VOY# 59 UNITY
VOY# 68-69 SCORPION (7 of 9, species 8472
SNW2(VOY) A Ribbon for Rosie (7 of 9)
VOY# 74 THE RAVEN
VOY (N) Seven of Nine (the Skedans
SNW 9 VOY Maturation [annika becoming seven borg
VOY# 109-110 DARK FRONTIER
SNW4(VOY) Iridium-7 Tetrahydroxate Crystals Are a Girl's Best Friend ( Q Vash, the Borg Queen
VOY# 145-146 UNIMATRIX ZERO ( Borg Queen
VOY# 149 IMPERFECTION ( Borg children. )
VOY# 170-171, VOY (N) ENDGAME
every VOY ep with Seven
NG (N) Before Dishonor
(Star Trek: Corps of Engineers) The Light [borg
SNW 10 VOY The Day the Borg Came [borg
SNW VII Spec Forgotten Light [borg
SNW 8 Star Trek: Voyager This Drone [Seven

enough for me!

my vote for long thought dead Captain - Pike !
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Old June 13 2008, 01:13 PM   #334
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

^ How could you forget:

SNW5 The Trouble with Borg Tribbles (Borg, tribbles)
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Old June 13 2008, 01:49 PM   #335
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

HIj'Qa wrote: View Post
my vote for long thought dead Captain - Pike !
The blurbs say it will be Hernandez, and I'm inclined to believe that even if other stuff in there proves preliminary/incorrect.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
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Old June 13 2008, 02:21 PM   #336
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Wowbagger wrote: View Post
"Borg attack the Alpha Quadrant through a secret passageway in a nebula, only to be found out by Captain Picard and the crew of the Enterprise, which leads a massive Federation counterattack in the Delta Quadrant that fails against the strength of several hundred Borg Cubes, leading (albeit indirectly) to a virtually unopposed assault on the entire Alpha Quadrant by the Borg" is a damn sight closer to Destiny's blurb than, say, Coronation Street's.

I suppose the definition of "eerie" is up to you, but parallel? Heck, yeah.
Again, that's only valid if you cherrypick the few points of similarity and ignore the far more numerous points where they differ. Which is ridiculous. It would only be valid to say there's a parallel if the points of similarity outnumber the points of difference. Which they very, very obviously do not. And that's just going from the stripped-down summaries of both works, which obviously leave out countless differences in substance, style, quality, you name it.

Basically you're arguing that a giraffe bears an uncanny resemblance to a shark because they both have two eyes, a mouth, vertebrae, forelimbs, a heart, a stomach, and bilateral symmetry. It is invalid to select a few isolated points that fit an arbitrary pattern, ignore the vast majority of points that conflict with that pattern, and claim that you have thereby proven the pattern.
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Old June 13 2008, 04:54 PM   #337
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Harumph.

Christopher, would you argue that Nemesis and TWOK did not share an uncanny resemblence? There are radical differences, yes, but, when watching Nemesis for the third time (hey, I liked ST X), I couldn't shake the feeling that I was watching a rehash of Khan, Spock, and the Battle of the Mutara Nebula. To me, the parallels were striking: an embittered, half-mad nemesis with a link to the captain's past, bent on vaguely crazed revenge, culminating in an epic space battle in a spooky nebula. The captain himself beginning to feel old, with his most trusted advisor and friend there to support him--before said friend sacrifices himself to save his captain and his ship, dying in the process... but with hints that he may be resurrected in the next movie.

There were also striking differences. In substance, style, quality (that last in particular), and everything from characterization to plot structure. There was no parallel to the Big Frakking Thalaron Gun in TWOK, and the Viceroy was no Joachim. The B- and C-plots differed wildly. But the core story of the two films was, in my view, essentially the same. That's how I--and, I think, most people--would define "uncanny resemblance."

Any time one seeks out a parallel, one will be looking at only certain facts--specifically, the ones that support the parallel one is trying to establish. If enough of the facts fit into the parallel--and this is an arbitrary threshold--it's a pretty good parallel. Out of the 20 sentences in the presently-available Destiny blurbs, I can take 7 of them and use them without any alteration in an Armada II blurb--and quite a good blurb one, at that. If I ignore the complication of Ezri Dax and the Aventine, I can use 10.

50% ain't cherrypicking. Heck, 35% ain't cherrypicking. Nemesis wasn't even close to that number, but I'd still say it closely paralleled TWOK.

I won't have "proven" anything until the books come out and we can all see for ourselves--and, of course, you have insider info on what's in this book. But any fair-minded individual who plays AII on a regular basis and sits down to read these Destiny blurbs without access to inside knowledge is going to say, "Hey, I already played this game!"

In short, harumph.

Dayton: bring it.
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Old June 13 2008, 05:51 PM   #338
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Wowbagger wrote: View Post
Christopher, would you argue that Nemesis and TWOK did not share an uncanny resemblence?
That's not a valid comparison, because NEM was deliberately modelled on TWOK. Also because the similarities are systemic and integral to the structure of the story, not just randomly cherrypicked out of a larger mass.

Keep in mind that I'm one of the few people who have actually read Destiny. And I can guarantee you that its similarities to that computer game are minimal and, to coin a phrase, irrelevant.

Any time one seeks out a parallel, one will be looking at only certain facts--specifically, the ones that support the parallel one is trying to establish.
Only if one is either unaware of the difference between valid and invalid reasoning or deliberately attempting to mislead others. No conclusion is valid unless it takes all the evidence into account. There is a critical difference between a pattern that genuinely arises from the evidence and a pattern that you selectively interpret the evidence to create. The former is honest investigation, while the latter is merely an exercise in self-justification. You're supposed to shape your conclusions based on the evidence, not to shape the evidence to fit your desired conclusions.
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Old June 13 2008, 06:11 PM   #339
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Wowbagger wrote: View Post
There was no parallel to the Big Frakking Thalaron Gun in TWOK, and the Viceroy was no Joachim.
Actually, the Genesis Device-- both being countdown devices Our Heroes have to escape at the last minute, and do so with the Important Sacrifice-- would seem pretty close to me.
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Old June 14 2008, 12:50 AM   #340
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I'm just going to say that I have never seen the Star Trek Armada game, never played it, and know nothing about it. Any similarities between it and Destiny are unintentional and coincidental — and I would bet that once people read the actual 300,000-word trilogy and not just a troika of 125-word cover blurbs, they'll reach the same conclusion.
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Old June 14 2008, 02:24 AM   #341
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

^ You gotta learn to stop talkin' that crazy sense talk, man.
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Old June 14 2008, 02:45 PM   #342
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

HIj'Qa wrote: View Post
Just a rough list of Borg-centric stories
NG# 42 Q WHO ( Borg. Q, Sonya Gomez
NG# 74-75 THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS (Shelby, Borg Wolf 359
GN VOY 10 Ghosts (the Borg Wolf 359
DS9 GN 6 Program 359 [Sisko holoprogram battling Wolf 359
SNW1(NG) Civil Disobedience [Q borg
NG (N) Vendetta
NG# 76 FAMILY
NG# 123 I BORG (Hugh
SNW2(VOY) Seventh Heaven ( Hugh Seven
NG# 152-153,NG (N) DESCENT (Sequel to BROTHERS and I BORG.
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness (Enab, former associate of Hugh
NG DC GN 47-50 The Worst of Both Worlds [borg
SNW VI Spec The Beginning [borg queen
M, N(NG), MS(NG) STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT
SNW VII NG Full Circle [Hawk
SNW3(NG) A Private Victory (Hawk
ENT# 49 REGENERATION ( Borg
NF (N) No Limits Excalibur: Making a Difference [Korsmo First Contact
Star Trek: The Manga: Shinsei Shinsei Side Effects [birth of borg queen
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness ( Hugh of Borg.
N/N(NG)/DS9 (N) The Return ( Borg, Salatrel
Game Borg
VOY# 58 BLOOD FEVER (Vorik. the Borg
VOY# 59 UNITY
VOY# 68-69 SCORPION (7 of 9, species 8472
SNW2(VOY) A Ribbon for Rosie (7 of 9)
VOY# 74 THE RAVEN
VOY (N) Seven of Nine (the Skedans
SNW 9 VOY Maturation [annika becoming seven borg
VOY# 109-110 DARK FRONTIER
SNW4(VOY) Iridium-7 Tetrahydroxate Crystals Are a Girl's Best Friend ( Q Vash, the Borg Queen
VOY# 145-146 UNIMATRIX ZERO ( Borg Queen
VOY# 149 IMPERFECTION ( Borg children. )
VOY# 170-171, VOY (N) ENDGAME
every VOY ep with Seven
NG (N) Before Dishonor
(Star Trek: Corps of Engineers) The Light [borg
SNW 10 VOY The Day the Borg Came [borg
SNW VII Spec Forgotten Light [borg
SNW 8 Star Trek: Voyager This Drone [Seven

enough for me!

my vote for long thought dead Captain - Pike !
Some of the stories you mentioned aren't really Borg stories. Family for one thing is a Picard story first and foremost, and probably one of the best ones there was. Descent was more about Data and Lore than the Borg, and besides, the Borg that were there weren't really like the rest of the Borg in a few key areas. Blood Fever does nothing more than show a Borg corpse and a couple scared people, the majority of the show was spent with a crazy Vulcan. I don't remember "A Ribbon for Rosie" all that well but I don't remember much of a Borg story there. I don't think you can count ever episode with Seven as a Borg episode, because she is no longer a Borg. At most she is trying to integrate with a new society in a similar way to Data or Odo, perhaps even Spock from the other series. And I've searched through Memory Beta and I can't find anything about a Program 359, maybe they just don't have it listed but I was able to find just about everything else on your list.
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Old June 14 2008, 04:22 PM   #343
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

^^But I think that's just the point. What that list shows is that there's no uniformity to stories involving the Borg in one way or another -- that you can't make any assumptions about what a story will be like just because the Borg are involved in it in some way.
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Old June 14 2008, 04:45 PM   #344
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Christopher wrote: View Post
^^But I think that's just the point. What that list shows is that there's no uniformity to stories involving the Borg in one way or another -- that you can't make any assumptions about what a story will be like just because the Borg are involved in it in some way.
True, even from the episodes the Borg stories were different. Best of Both Worlds 1 and 2 is much different from Scorpion 1 and 2. Just from what I can remember off the top of my head we've had science gone wrong (Side Effects), zombie attacks (First Contact), seemingly unstoppable menace (Best of Both Worlds), we should learn our limits (Q Who?) and person leaving their societal group (I, Borg and many of the 7 of 9 eps) stories so its not like they are a one trick pony. Even if one tv series tried to portray them as such.
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Old June 16 2008, 11:57 PM   #345
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Christopher wrote:
That's not a valid comparison, because NEM was deliberately modelled on TWOK.
Really? I didn't know that, actually. That's why it took me three viewings to notice. As I said.

A pity, too, because I was originally going to use an example with The Chronicles of Narnia's parallels to Christianity, but dismissed it for precisely that reason.

You have, of course, information to which we do not have access. (I didn't realize you'd actually read the books... lucky you.) If you try to look at this from my perspective--a fan who won't read the books until autumn, and is basing everything off of "just a troika of 125-word cover blurbs"--I'm sure you'll see that I am not "cherrypicking" anything. From the information that is available to me, the little bits of story structure I can see reveals an A-plot nearly identical to that of AII--not exactly identical, just as no work is exactly identical to any other, but similar enough in enough respects to reveal a parallel. To claim that any parallel that fails to take into account 100% of available facts is "invalid reasoning" is simply disingenous. Exactly what sort of further "honest investigation" do you propose I do, short of finding out where Mr. Mack lives and stealing his manuscripts?

Of course, I might do that anyways. I really want to read this trilogy.

Anyhow, I never questioned Mr. Mack's integrity as a writer, and if any such inferrence was drawn by anyone who's read this thread (despite the big "don't take this as a slam" subclause), I hope to disabuse you of the notion right now. I'm more than certain any such similarites were purely coincidental, and that Destiny won't end with a battle between the allied Federation-Borg Fleet and Species 8472. I am well aware of the scanty information that is available to me compared to the final work, and was merely making an observation--one which, as an Armada fan, I found positively fascinating--and not attempting to create a self-justifying universe in which I assemble as many isolated facts as I can as part of a propaganda campaign with the ultimate goal of discrediting David Mack as a plagiarist and seizing his place on the Pocket Books High Council after slaying him in hand-to-hand combat.

Although, come to think of it, that's not all that bad an idea. We all know how much power, honor, and riches come of being a Star Trek writer.
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