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Old March 2 2009, 09:51 AM   #811
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

CuttingEdge100 wrote: View Post
However once the ship separates, you would ideally have everybody in the saucer. And once the emergency is abated as the saucer continues to cruise around you would need to have enough room for everybody to sleep!
Why are you stuck on this one point (over and over and over again)?

Frankly, I wouldn't consider supporting the standard crew of 430 people in the saucer a real emergency from a habitation point of view... it would most likely be more like an inconvenience (as all cabins are really doubles, and therefore the saucer should be able to house up to 526 people at two to a cabin). But for the most part (while waiting for retrieval) life would go on like normal (the type of thing that the crew would have been doing in the 3 to 4 months the Enterprise was stranded in Amerind's system during "The Paradise Syndrome").

A real emergency would be to support more than the normal crew... and the saucer alone should be able to support 1500 people (at about six persons to a cabin) for a short period (up to a month).

FYI... this is the last response on crew accommodations I'll be giving you. The subject has been beaten to death, and if you can't grasp this at this point, there is nothing in the world I (or anyone else it would seem) can add that will help you.

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Edit: Lets take this a step further... the Enterprise is a closed system while in space, nothing lost and nothing gained. The average crew person is allotted 100 kg (220 lb.) of recyclable material (a form of cellulose and water).

What is this used for?

Beyond the obvious (food and fluids), it is also the material that their uniforms and bedding are made out of. Granted, most of that material would sit in storage as the average person wouldn't need that much of their allotment at any one time. The idea is that it takes energy to transition this stuff and the faster the ship's recycling systems has to generate this stuff, the more resources that system would require.

But above I was talking about an emergency where the ship might need to evacuate 1000 people. In that case, everyone would have to start rationing, with their allotment cut to about 16.7 kg (or about 35 lb.) of material. People who might be keeping spare uniforms in their drawers or extra bedding would be asked to turn in those items, and water usage would have to be managed as well.

What wouldn't count for this? Anything not originally made of that material (like civilian clothing and the like).

For the most part, the recycling system is non-centralized... every compartment has the ability to provide for more than it's standard compliment if needed. Some areas have more extensive facilities than others... such as the ships stores which can make non-standard clothing (or books or other items). Conversion of this material into something that is not recyclable is frowned upon.

Last edited by Shaw; March 2 2009 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Expanded to include a similar subject.
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Old March 2 2009, 07:49 PM   #812
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
I really like Cary's idea for VIP quarters... I could see something that looks like the master cabin of a yacht on one or more of those decks.

Unfortunately, the existence of VIP cabins is negated on screen by "Elaan of Troyius," where Uhura gives up her cabin for the Dolman. If there are VIP cabins, then surely she would've gotten one.

Then again in "Journal to Babel," Sarek and Amanda are in the standard officer's quarters.

There is a way around it, of course; perhaps the VIP cabins are interchangeable modules that, depending on the mission profile at the time, can be swapped out for science and research modules. So in EoT, the VIP cabins aren't available having been switched out for some other mission. Or some such rational.
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Old March 2 2009, 09:23 PM   #813
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, the existence of VIP cabins is negated on screen by "Elaan of Troyius," where Uhura gives up her cabin for the Dolman. If there are VIP cabins, then surely she would've gotten one...
Not really... remember that people were going out of their way to try to make Elaan happy. If she didn't want a window, that means she wouldn't have wanted any of the VIP cabins, including the ones on deck 2 (one of which was originally Captain Pike's). Recall that in "The Enterprise Incident" they put the Romulan Commander on deck 2. Plus "Journey to Babel" included tons of dignitaries (far more than there are VIP cabins) and Vulcans would not have pushed for one of those cabins.

More importantly, the logic that I'm using on these plans (when comparing to what we saw on screen) doesn't follow a not seen, not there pattern. Your example of "Elaan of Troyius" makes this type of argument:
If guest star alpha didn't have coffee for breakfast on the Enterprise, and we never saw anyone else have coffee with breakfast, then the Enterprise doesn't provide coffee with breakfast.
There are plenty of other possibilities (like guest star alpha not liking coffee) other than the complete negation of coffee for all persons for breakfast on the Enterprise.

Besides, I don't believe that the VIP cabins are kept in a constant state of preparedness. In "The Enterprise Incident", Spock and the Romulan Commander spend quite a bit of time in the turbo lift making their way to deck 2. Either the cabin was being made up or a guard was being summoned (most likely the latter though).
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Old March 2 2009, 10:52 PM   #814
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Spock could've also been taking the scenic route, to not give the Commander any more of a clue of the Enterprise's layout than she might've already had.

As far as designated VIP quarters, I don't see the Enterprise having more than three or four cabins set aside for that purprose, for the occasional visiting admiral or commodore (if Decker hadn't decided to go kamikaze, he probably would've been put up on one of those). Who got those quarters in "Journey to Babel", that matter alone probably took six months of negotiations.

As for "Elaan of Troyius", I doubt Ambassador Petri had any problems taking one of the VIP cabins.
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Old March 3 2009, 02:34 AM   #815
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Shaw wrote: View Post
I really like Cary's idea for VIP quarters... I could see something that looks like the master cabin of a yacht on one or more of those decks.

Unfortunately, the existence of VIP cabins is negated on screen by "Elaan of Troyius," where Uhura gives up her cabin for the Dolman. If there are VIP cabins, then surely she would've gotten one.

Then again in "Journal to Babel," Sarek and Amanda are in the standard officer's quarters.

There is a way around it, of course; perhaps the VIP cabins are interchangeable modules that, depending on the mission profile at the time, can be swapped out for science and research modules. So in EoT, the VIP cabins aren't available having been switched out for some other mission. Or some such rational.
Well, suppose that there's only one "Ambassadorial VIP Suite?" And that's where the Troians are staying. I do recall that the Elaasans and the Troians weren't in the same part of the ship... probably by choice.

I can easily imagine the scene... "I will not have my quarters near those animals!"

Granted, a stretch, but not entirely unreasonable. Heck, there may even have been empty cabins throughout the ship able to be used, but perhaps she DEMANDED that he displace one of his senior staff... just to be the bitch that she was so proud of being.
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Old March 3 2009, 06:17 AM   #816
Albertese
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Cary L. Brown[/b wrote:

...


Granted, a stretch, but not entirely unreasonable. Heck, there may even have been empty cabins throughout the ship able to be used, but perhaps she DEMANDED that he displace one of his senior staff... just to be the bitch that she was so proud of being.
Yeah, I figure more along these lines. I've always speculated that it was considered more polite to these particular cultures to displace oneself for the dignitary and therefore, Uhura gave up her quarters in the spirit of etiquette and protocol. There were plenty of quarters available (witness "Journey to Babel") but in order to satisfy the cultural specifications of the Dohlman's planet, one of the Crew had better defer.
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Old March 3 2009, 12:01 PM   #817
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Jag2112 wrote: View Post
Adding to this thread, I thought I would mention that I've uploaded the first set of "Interactive" Enterprise Deck plans to my site.

Unlike the other 2,000 or so blueprints that I have online, this set of deck plans, which is based on the works of Franz Joseph's original Enterprise blueprints as well as the Star Fleet Technical Manual, allows your to work your way through all 24 decks of the Enterprise, with details on ever major section.

To access the deckplans, click this link: http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...lans/index.php

I hope you enjoy them-

-John
Very cool! I had thought of doing something like this myself some years ago.

I would suggest that you alter your "Copyright 2008 Lawrence D. Miller" statement to mention Franz Joseph's authorship of the drawings, and Paramount's ownership of the copyright to said drawings. Neither FJ nor Paramount are mentioned explicitly anywhere in relation to this tool.
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Old March 3 2009, 09:09 PM   #818
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, the existence of VIP cabins is negated on screen by "Elaan of Troyius," where Uhura gives up her cabin for the Dolman. If there are VIP cabins, then surely she would've gotten one...
Not really... remember that people were going out of their way to try to make Elaan happy. If she didn't want a window, that means she wouldn't have wanted any of the VIP cabins, including the ones on deck 2 (one of which was originally Captain Pike's). Recall that in "The Enterprise Incident" they put the Romulan Commander on deck 2. Plus "Journey to Babel" included tons of dignitaries (far more than there are VIP cabins) and Vulcans would not have pushed for one of those cabins.

More importantly, the logic that I'm using on these plans (when comparing to what we saw on screen) doesn't follow a not seen, not there pattern. Your example of "Elaan of Troyius" makes this type of argument:
If guest star alpha didn't have coffee for breakfast on the Enterprise, and we never saw anyone else have coffee with breakfast, then the Enterprise doesn't provide coffee with breakfast.
There are plenty of other possibilities (like guest star alpha not liking coffee) other than the complete negation of coffee for all persons for breakfast on the Enterprise.

Besides, I don't believe that the VIP cabins are kept in a constant state of preparedness. In "The Enterprise Incident", Spock and the Romulan Commander spend quite a bit of time in the turbo lift making their way to deck 2. Either the cabin was being made up or a guard was being summoned (most likely the latter though).

True 'dat.
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Old March 3 2009, 09:29 PM   #819
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Tallguy brought up an interesting point in another forum... the ramp at the rear of the trench of the warp nacelle doesn't have an obvious geometry based on either the plans or images of the actual model. I hadn't spent much time on this area, but realized that he had a very good point. The best solution I can think of is to attempt to recreate that section of the nacelle as a physical model to see what is actually happening there.

Hopefully I'll have some time over the next few days to attempt this study. I've decided on half scale, which should be large enough to recreate the conditions of the original model while also not being too big a pain to build.

The plan...
The study model is going to be about 4 to 5 inches long and 3 inches in diameter. There will be four sectional supports, two full circles and two with the proper trench cut out, all made of foam-core board. The outer surface will be made of poster board with the joining seam aligned with the center of the trench (just as on the model). The foundation of the trench will also be poster board, a single sheet with bent edges to match the shape of the trench, and it'll extend beyond the two forward supports (with the cut out) all the way to the first one without a cut out(with this piece supplying additional support for the surface as it passes underneath). The surface itself will be cut to match what we see on the model as the boundary of the trench.

The last piece... the ramp, will be fitted as best as possible to the previously assembled pieces. It will not be pre-cut to a given shape, but adjusted as needed to fit the opening in the study model.

Here are the plans I'll be using to create the parts I need for the study.

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Old March 4 2009, 02:44 AM   #820
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Secondary hull of the Enterprise, or marital aid instruction sheet? You be the judge!
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Old March 4 2009, 04:20 AM   #821
Praetor
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Backtracking slightly, I've been bothered about my supposed recollection that the scale of the Enterprise was changed between 'The Cage' and 'Where No Man Has Gone Before,' so I've dug out my copy of 'The Making of Star Trek' and I think I've figured out where I got the idea.

First, from the series format - not dated, but it notes Robert April as the Captain, page 24:
The U.S.S. Enterprise:
Cruiser Class - Gross 190,000 tons
Crew Compliiment - 203 persons
Drive - space-warp
Range - 18 years at light-year velocity
Registry - Earth, United Spaceship
(Amusingly, on page 26, the format notes: 'The cruiser itself stays in space orbit, rarely lands upon a planet.' (emphasis mine)

So we have a starting crew of 203 and a mass of 190,000, before any design work had been done.

Next, in a memo dated August 24, 1964, in the chapter called 'A Blueprint for Starflight,' from Gene Roddenberry to those concerned, page 89:
It seems to me the scale of the miniature U.S.S. Enterprise is a little large. We anticipate a final design might see the ship at 200 feet in length, and thus even 1 1/2 inch scale would give us quite a huge miniature.
Later, in the chapter about the second pilot ('The Second Time Around'), from Whitfield's text, page 134:
The original series format called for a crew compliment of 203 persons. Overall length of the Enterprise was originally estimated at 200 feet. Now, however, with the Enterprise design firmly established, it became obvious those two points were no longer valid. According to Matt Jefferies' calculations, the full-size Enterprise would measure 947 feet overall. With that much room to play with, the crew compliment was boosted to 430.
(Mass afficionados also take note: the 190,000 weight ship appears to correlate to the 200 foot ship, not the 947 foot ship, even though it is subsequently attached to the 947 foot ship on page 171.)

This is what in turn led me to believe that the alteration to the bridge dome was a reflection of this scale change, and that it had occurred between pilots. Could Gene have been unaware of the predicted size of the ship the design of which he had approved, and just taken this long to correct it?

What does this all mean?
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Last edited by Praetor; March 4 2009 at 04:30 AM.
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Old March 4 2009, 04:51 AM   #822
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Praetor wrote: View Post
(Mass afficionados also take note: the 190,000 weight ship appears to correlate to the 200 foot ship, not the 947 foot ship, even though it is subsequently attached to the 947 foot ship on page 171.)
I don't see the correlation.

The original crew compliment was for a smaller ship (of undefined design) and was part of the original script. The Enterprise went through a number of design changes and reached 947 ft and 190,000 tons at the end of October of 1964. The Cage was filmed in December of 1964 and both models received windows scaled at the final length that same month (at Roddenberry's request). April was still the name of the captain when the final size was determined.

The original crew size was still based on the original (mono-hull) Yorktown with a length of 200 feet. It wasn't addressed as an issue until September of 1965 as I recall.

Whitfield's book is a time-line nightmare... things are completely out of order, and the things we care about today weren't even on his mind back then. But for me, I decided to set iCal back to 1964 and make notes on things as I found them (a small sampling I posted here).

So April, 203 person crew and 190,000 tons all exist at the same time in November 1964 (when the length of 947 ft of finalized).
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Old March 4 2009, 05:09 AM   #823
Praetor
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
(Mass afficionados also take note: the 190,000 weight ship appears to correlate to the 200 foot ship, not the 947 foot ship, even though it is subsequently attached to the 947 foot ship on page 171.)
I don't see the correlation.

The original crew compliment was for a smaller ship (of undefined design) and was part of the original script. The Enterprise went through a number of design changes and reached 947 ft and 190,000 tons at the end of October of 1964. The Cage was filmed in December of 1964 and both models received windows scaled at the final length that same month (at Roddenberry's request). April was still the name of the captain when the final size was determined.

The original crew size was still based on the original (mono-hull) Yorktown with a length of 200 feet. It wasn't addressed as an issue until September of 1965 as I recall.

Whitfield's book is a time-line nightmare... things are completely out of order, and the things we care about today weren't even on his mind back then. But for me, I decided to set iCal back to 1964 and make notes on things as I found them (a small sampling I posted here).

So April, 203 person crew and 190,000 tons all exist at the same time in November 1964 (when the length of 947 ft of finalized).
I just found it interesting in retracing why I thought what I thought, that among other things they stuck to 190,000 tons after upsizing the ship. But I figured the timeline was suspect, and you'd have all the info.
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Old March 4 2009, 05:40 AM   #824
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Praetor wrote: View Post
I just found it interesting in retracing why I thought what I thought, that among other things they stuck to 190,000 tons after upsizing the ship. But I figured the timeline was suspect, and you'd have all the info.
Strangely enough, I haven't had a copy of Whitfield's book in nearly 15 years, but bought another copy on ebay a few weeks ago... and it is very hard to get information out of it in the order in which it happened.

But yeah, I just finish going through it again and noted a lot of what you said while reading it.



But in Whitfield's defense, that book was incredible given the fact that it came out while Star Trek was still on the air! I just wish FJ hadn't used the cropped images of the phaser (which included the shadow) for his Technical Manual.
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Old March 4 2009, 06:00 AM   #825
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, keep in mind a lot of it was fed to Whitfied from the Great Bird himself. Even Whitfield acknowledges the man's ability to talk the talk.
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