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Old September 5 2008, 06:53 AM   #616
Shaw
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Location: Twin Cities
Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

USS Jack Riley wrote:
I have something that I have been tossing around in my head that you might want to think about in working out your impulse engine thrust chart. Your mileage will vary based on how much real v. Star Trek science you plan to use. I will also try and explain this as best I can given my limited scientific vocabulary.

What if the glowing parts of the impulse engines is simply a "tailpipe" as Uhura put it in ST VI. IOW, the glowing parts are not representative of the impluse engine's thrust (or at least only contribute slightly to the thrust of the ship), but instead are just the ionized gases left over from producing the thrust.

If the impulse engines work in the manner that you are suggesting, then there is no way to go full reverse (at least none that I can see readily from the current design). In essence, you would have to order a 180 degree turn on the z axis (yaw in aeronautical parlance) and then hit full impulse in order to slow to a stop and then start increasing speed in the opposite direction.
You know, this would most likely be a great time to apply BK613's point of looking at how aircraft deal with this issue. If the impulse engines were a vectored thrust type of engine at their most basic level, then maybe they used a similar mechanism for reverse thrust the many modern jet aircraft use.

I'm not saying that we ever saw anything like this on the show (as an effect), but there isn't anything that would rule out something similar done either physically or with deflectors on the model (though I would lean toward a physical solution before an invisible one).

While I most likely won't take the workings too far, I'd have to say that I fall into the camp of those who feel that impulse may have had some FTL abilities (most likely in conjunction with deflector system).

Masao wrote:
A submerged sub has neutral buoyancy (or at best slightly negative buoyancy), so that it's overall density is equal to that of water (ie, 1 tonne/m^3). Therefore, its volume should be its submerged displacement tonnage divided by the density of water. The difference between the surface displacement tonnage and the submerged displacement tonnage would be the weight of the water it takes in to its ballast tanks to achieve this neutral buoyancy.

Since we're worried about the density of the dry/unballasted/surfaced ship, just divide the surface displacement by its submerged displacement. This gives us a figure of 0.894. If you multiply that by Enterprise's volume of 211,248 m^3, you get 188,872.6, which is very close to the 190,000 figure.
Well... I was just trying to point out my train of thought back then. But it sure looks like your calculations are better than mine (and more along the lines of what Jefferies most likely used).
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Old September 5 2008, 02:46 PM   #617
USS Jack Riley
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
You know, this would most likely be a great time to apply BK613's point of looking at how aircraft deal with this issue. If the impulse engines were a vectored thrust type of engine at their most basic level, then maybe they used a similar mechanism for reverse thrust the many modern jet aircraft use.

I'm not saying that we ever saw anything like this on the show (as an effect), but there isn't anything that would rule out something similar done either physically or with deflectors on the model (though I would lean toward a physical solution before an invisible one).

While I most likely won't take the workings too far, I'd have to say that I fall into the camp of those who feel that impulse may have had some FTL abilities (most likely in conjunction with deflector system).
I guess I look at the impulse vents as simply that - vents. The "tailpipe" reference got me to thinking about the movement of a car. The exhaust from the tailpipe produces little (if any) thrust to actually move the car. It is the turning of the wheels that moves the car with the exhaust simply a result of the power production necessary to move the wheels.

Similarly, the impulse vents produce little (if any) thrust. It is the magical and, I am sure, properly scientifically labeled parts of the impulse engines that actually move the ship. The impulse vents simply, well, vent radiation, plasma, ionized gas that is a byproduct of the power necessary to make the impulse engines work.

Again, just a thought. Can't wait to see more on this. Your previous work has not disappointed, so I eagerly await future additions.

Incidentally, your statement about the FTL capabilities of the impulse drive could explain the statement in "The Cage" about how the time barrier had just been broken.
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Last edited by USS Jack Riley; September 5 2008 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Old brain forgot to add part about The Cage
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Old September 21 2008, 05:43 PM   #618
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, I had been working towards getting together a final set of hull curves from the 11 foot model to share before starting in on the other details of the exterior, but after getting ambushed in another thread by someone who was harboring a significant amount of animosity towards me that seems to have been rooted in the sharing of my work here, I've decided that maybe sharing isn't generating the type of reactions I had thought it might.

There are a number of finalized steps along the way to finishing this project, and as I reach those I'll post links to the material here, but raw sketches of works in progress are going to be kept private from here on out. Given this latest experience, it seems like the best way to defuse the situation (though I have to admit, I'm still not entirely sure how it arose to begin with).

Anyways, for all of you who were offended by my sketches or my design processes, I'm sorry... my intension wasn't to make people angry or upset, just to share what I was in the process of working on so that if anyone saw something useful that they could use, they wouldn't have to wait for the final version.
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Old September 21 2008, 06:04 PM   #619
ST-One
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Well, I had been working towards getting together a final set of hull curves from the 11 foot model to share before starting in on the other details of the exterior, but after getting ambushed in another thread by someone who was harboring a significant amount of animosity towards me that seems to have been rooted in the sharing of my work here, I've decided that maybe sharing isn't generating the type of reactions I had thought it might.

There are a number of finalized steps along the way to finishing this project, and as I reach those I'll post links to the material here, but raw sketches of works in progress are going to be kept private from here on out. Given this latest experience, it seems like the best way to defuse the situation (though I have to admit, I'm still not entirely sure how it arose to begin with).

Anyways, for all of you who were offended by my sketches or my design processes, I'm sorry... my intension wasn't to make people angry or upset, just to share what I was in the process of working on so that if anyone saw something useful that they could use, they wouldn't have to wait for the final version.
My advise would be to ignore this moron and continue with this thread (it is yours after all) in any way you want.
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Old September 21 2008, 06:07 PM   #620
Bernard Guignard
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Hey Shaw dont leave one comment from one individual spoil it for the rest of us. I'm enjoying your work greatly and look forward to what you have to show. I know that I don't say much but I really enjoy reading about the thought processes and supposition that your putting into it. Just my two cents. Keep up the great work
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Old September 21 2008, 06:48 PM   #621
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Believe me, I'm as at a loss to the logic behind this as anyone... but when I ask a simple why in an unrelated thread and then find that someone whom I don't recall having any issues with has some built up resentment towards me that seems based on me sharing my work here, that makes me wonder if this entire endeavor wasn't actually counter productive.

Lets face it, it wouldn't be the first time that someone has labored under the misimpression that their efforts were for the greater good only to later discover that in all actuality they were producing the opposite effect. And having reviewed this thread (in an attempt to find this conflict that I seem to have forgotten) I've seen a number of times (with others) that seem to resemble that animosity.

So this isn't a rash decision, it is one that I came to after reviewing the topic to date in search of this phantom conflict.
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Old September 21 2008, 08:20 PM   #622
Bernard Guignard
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

We'll its your decision man just let me know if you decide to post other places and I'll follow so to speak. I just like looking at the nice technical pictures.
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Old September 22 2008, 06:13 AM   #623
Gagarin
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

say it isn't so, say it isn't so =(
I spent 3 hours going through Shaw's work--- the depth is incredible....it's the stuff that makes me gaze at Jefferies original work and wish he was able to flesh it out himself..
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Old September 22 2008, 07:00 AM   #624
LCARS 24
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, I found Shaw's work useful. I modified the deck and turbolift layouts and a few other things to reflect Shaw's ideas when making this MSD to put in my LCARS package. I originally had the decks evenly spaced, for one thing.

(Click up for full size)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y24...er/1701-LC.png

And by the way, Starship Polaris posted the photo below in the Star Trek XI forum, here:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=67574



Last edited by LCARS 24; September 22 2008 at 04:36 PM.
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Old September 22 2008, 04:30 PM   #625
Tallguy
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Location: Beyond the Farthest Star
Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, Shaw, the decision is yours to make. I've seen people abandon work here before because of their perception of other posters and I've never understood it (even when the other poster was obviously being a crank).

For my own self, I always look forward to whatever you feel like posting. So I'll just wait for whatever that will be next.
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Old September 22 2008, 06:46 PM   #626
sojourner
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

On behalf of all the "lower deck" officers on this board, I would like to apologize to you Shaw. Obviously some of the newer recruits still need to learn some manners.

I wouldn't let one post in an unrelated thread make you change what you are doing in this thread. You have gathered far more accolades than criticisms!
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Old September 22 2008, 07:19 PM   #627
BK613
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I hope you reconsider because your intermediary steps are as interesting as the final results, at least to me.


(BTW Shaw it was your posting of your work that inadvertently drew me to TrekBBS. Thanks to this thread, I have discovered that there is at least one ST community where the canonistas don't out-shout any one and everyone else. So now I find myself looking at Blender and wondering if I can get my old student copy of Softimage XSI to work just so that I can participate.)
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Old September 22 2008, 07:59 PM   #628
Shaw
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Location: Twin Cities
Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, I'm not saying that I'm not going to ever share my work again, but it is statements like these...
"It seems it's not enough for you to be overly sensitive to percieved criticism of your own work, now you have to overly sensitive on behalf of others?"
-and-
"I'm not the only one, or the first one, who has noticed that you come across as overly sensitive to percieved criticism,"
... that makes me believe that a conversation on my work-in-progress isn't mutually beneficial to all involved.

I'm a firm believer that both friendly suggestions and criticisms can with stand scrutiny... and just like I was opening up my sketches to scrutiny, I believe that comments on them should also be open to the same, with the strongest ideas surviving. Sometimes my original idea withstood the scrutiny, other times I was shown a better way.

I thought it worked.

But when I ask an innocent question (why) in another thread, and get basically assaulted with a fierce barrage of attacks (which stem from perceptions made here), that is why I've concluded that this experiment in community sharing has essentially failed. As to why such an innocent question would yield such a reaction, only that poster knows what he was reading into my short post. But the source of the animosity was clearly this thread. And, as he pointed out, he is not alone.

The fact that I scrutinize critics' positions as much as critics scrutinize my work will never change. And the only place I can think of where I tend to get short with people is when they nitpick on sketches while avoiding the content that the sketches were meant to share. There is a time and a place for those types of comments (at the end when I'm arranging the actual final work), but in a discussion of ideas with what I basically look at as cocktail napkin sketches, those are unwelcome distractions. But I also worry that my critics (the ones I need who look at the details and ask the important questions) may have been driven off.

Again though, I shouldn't have to worry that by opening a discussion with people that I'll (in some unrelated thread) receive the pent up animosity of some other member. And that member feels totally justified in what they did, and frankly (after reviewing this thread) I don't think he is alone in his perceptions (be them correct or in error).

So while I honestly believed that this was a successful experiment, and was a benefit to even those who's ideas I didn't subscribe to, I'm now starting to believe that the greater perception is that this thread has been an exercise in narcissism. And I can't think of a good argument against that type of perception considering that this thread is as long as it is, with as many views as it has gotten, and yet I've effectively produced nothing yet.

I mean consider the additional off topic comment I got...
"... wouldn't better use of your time be spent in bringing us more of your own excellent work?"
Lets face it, I get nothing out of this beyond the good will of the community. And while many have expressed that, I'm getting the impression that others are just looking for the opportunity to express the opposite.

I'm still going to work on this stuff... and I'll still share my sketches with some people (in private), but at this time the community aspect is seeming counter productive. And it wasn't one member ruining it, like I said, in trying to find whatever conflict I had with this person, I came across similar attitudes from others. I just hadn't considered before this that sharing might yield such results.
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Old September 22 2008, 10:20 PM   #629
sojourner
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw, just remember the old saying "sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me". If someone doesn't like your comments or work, they don't HAVE to look at your posts. Nobody is forcing what you post on them. If they don't like it, just tell them to go away and/or ignore them. Depriving the rest of us from seeing your work because of an isolated few is throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
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Old September 22 2008, 11:52 PM   #630
Praetor
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Yeah Shaw, don't let this discourage you. No one's forcing them to read the thread for godsakes. I for one was thoroughly enjoying what you were sharing and hope you'll decide to keep it up.
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