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Old June 3 2008, 01:40 PM   #526
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
1) We don't know how in-depth any discussions were between FJ and MJ.

2) It's debatable just how knowledgeable Jefferies was on the theory of warp drive (he hadn't even heard of it when Roddenberry hired him).

3) Just as you don't want to risk an embolism trying to rationalize stuff like lightsabers and Superman's powers with real world science, don't confuse real world physics with Star Trek physics. An ounce of Star Trek antimatter blew away half the atmosphere of a Class M planet. When dealing with Star Trek technology, it's important to deal, first and foremost, with Star Trek's rules of physics, and only consulting the real world when the Star Trek record is lacking.
You're right, Robert. But if you limit yourself to just TOS, the Star Trek record is lacking. They purposely avoided tying any of this stuff down, and tried to maintain a sense of magic. We're talking about what might have been tied down behind the scenes. It's only when we got hold of it that any tying down among fans occurred. More recent official publications revealing behind the scenes thinking -- like the TNG-TM -- and the resultant dependency on canon has limited that kind of "filling in the blanks" among the latest generations of fans.

But, hey... don't worry. Trekkies are as free to ignore the conclusions of physicists as they are the conclusions of anyone else.
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Old June 4 2008, 12:44 AM   #527
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Just trying to remind folks of the ground rules of the sandbox in which they are playing.

If we were all at MIT designing a real starship, we wouldn't have any choice but to deal with real physics and the real yield of a matter/antimatter reactor.

If we were plotting the next issue of Iron Man, we'd have all the previous suits of armor to draw upon, and their capabilities, as well as other precedents in the Marvel Universe.

If we had to figure out what happens when Superman encounters another shade of kryptonite, we'd have to first determine what the current rules are and how many varieties are around and which ones have been relegated to the pre-Crisis universe.

This is Star Trek, with its own set of physical rules and established technical capabilities and thresholds of credibility. Tread carefully when venturing outside the lines.
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Old June 4 2008, 02:25 AM   #528
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, maybe we should partition the sandbox a little more then...

See, I classify things like Iron Man, Superman and Star Wars as fantasy. As such their value pretty much ends when whatever story is being told is over. I'll watch or read Superman and I'll watch Star Wars, but that is the absolute limit of the amount of effort I'll extend towards anything that falls into the realm of fantasy.

Star Trek is science fiction. And while I am happy to pass time enjoying any given dramatic presentation of Star Trek, I'm also happy to spend years in school and putting myself thousands of dollars into debt studying science based on the inspiration of Star Trek. And I've been happy to spend hundreds of hours researching aspects of Star Trek and sharing my findings with others.

I'm interested in Star Trek as inspirational science fiction and I'm very happy to find others who are willing to expend the energy in actually thinking about what could be when projecting forward from our understanding of science today. TOS (more than any other Star Trek) worked not to trip itself up by introducing fantasy elements into itself and it lends itself nicely to different interpretations of what was happening even as our understanding of science has evolved in the intervening years since the show first aired.

If you equate Star Trek with Iron Man and Superman then I'm not sure why you would expend any effort towards technical endeavors. I do because the show holds up exceptionally well to technical scrutiny and that for many people this aspect of Star Trek inspires them to take other elements a step further in trying to actually make what they see a reality.

In my eyes the only fantasy aspect of Star Trek is the alien races. Otherwise, it is the benchmark by which all other science fiction is measured against. And as I don't watch any other science fiction (or fantasy) series with any regularity, I'd have to say nothing since Star Trek has quite measured up to it.



The fact that I'm motivated to work on this project given the vast amounts of real world mathematics and physics knowledge that I have should speak volumes about how well made Star Trek is (specially TOS). And the biggest mistake made by later Star Trek series (and why my interest in them has fallen off over the years) is their attempt to do exactly the type of fantasy science that you seem to see in all of Star Trek. By not trying to over explain everything (or explain many things at all), TOS left the science of the show open to future interpretation rather than linking it to pseudoscience or dateable technobabble. The more real world mathematics and physics I learn, the more I'm pushed back towards TOS and away from the other parts of Star Trek for anything other than a mindless pass time of watching TV.


Now, while I may be using the black box analogy in place of attempts at applying real science in my plans, I can guarantee that I do think about what might be involved in how those aspects work. And as long as no one expects me to include either my ideas or the ideas of others put forward here, I don't see what there is a problem discussing this stuff. After all, it is understood that other well most likely use what I'm putting forward here on their own projects and I highly doubt that other people will restrict themselves in the same way I am on my project.

So in this sandbox the rules should be considered that what toys you bring are brought to share, and if you don't want to play with someone else's toys you don't have to. But not wanting to play with certain toys is not a good reason to drive them out of the sandbox.



... where the sandbox in that last paragraph is this thread and the toys are ideas and concepts of others expressed here (just in case that started to get a little too abstract ).
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Old June 4 2008, 02:28 AM   #529
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Both Aridas and CRA make valid points.

Some assertions Roddenberry made, especially in the TNG-era, rubbed people the wrong way. One of the Roddenberryan assertions that FJ's 1975 Star Fleet Tecnical Manual as being apocryphal proved to be very controversial. Many people, myself included, think Roddenberry went too far. Clever how FJ took Kirk's "only twelve like it in the fleet", and turned it around to show how the Federation could have a substantial armada of starships in space. FJ also had the insight and forsight to put forth the idea of starship classes with subclasses, which fans over the years have used to suggest how starship technology evolves over time. This seemed to dovetail nicely into the refit story seen in TMP, and explain how the Enterprise on earlier missions appeared visibly different.

That having been said, FJ's Tech Manual contained deviations from TOS; always looked to me like he based it on reruns from the years 1-2 of TOS, but forgot the third. (The ill-fated Starship Defiant is not even mentioned in the Constitution-class ship list.)
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Old June 4 2008, 02:40 AM   #530
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Wingsley wrote: View Post
Both Aridas and CRA make valid points.
Yes, but above and beyond the validity of their individual points, I think it is extremely important that they both (as well as others) feel free to continue to make them.
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Old June 4 2008, 05:05 AM   #531
U.S.S. Republic
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Star Trek is science fiction. And while I am happy to... spend years in school and putting myself thousands of dollars into debt studying science based on the inspiration of Star Trek. And I've been happy to spend hundreds of hours researching aspects of Star Trek and sharing my findings with others.
And, that is a worthy endeavor. Not only for personal but professional reasons and enjoyment. This is what true Trek fandom was all about.

The fact that I'm motivated to work on this project given the vast amounts of real world mathematics and physics knowledge that I have should speak volumes about how well made Star Trek is (specially TOS). And the biggest mistake made by later Star Trek series (and why my interest in them has fallen off over the years) is their attempt to do exactly the type of fantasy science that you seem to see in all of Star Trek. By not trying to over explain everything (or explain many things at all), TOS left the science of the show open to future interpretation rather than linking it to pseudoscience or dateable technobabble. The more real world mathematics and physics I learn, the more I'm pushed back towards TOS and away from the other parts of Star Trek for anything other than a mindless pass time of watching TV.
And one of the reasons I am actively following this thread.
Thank you for the effort, it is not going unrecognized.

Your use of only existing TOS elements (actual set plans etc.) without feeling the need to flesh things out wholly just because you could is truly unique - even though I knew others would/will have that inclination to fill every space possible. I even applauded, pages ago, the use of the hull diagram schematic since it was an original element that I had not seen used in such a way before with any validity. Kudos again.

In earlier posts of this thread I lightly mocked with some subtlety fanon explanations derived from technobabble and later sources of fanon turned canon (and not!) which had been offered by others playing in your sandbox, which I had hoped served to underscore how truly unique your approach is.
Derailment by shoehorning and offered/advised adherence to elements not applicable as stated in your "Mission Statement" bothered me as a fan of not only this project, but of Trek itself - mostly I just remain silent on the issue of fanon/canon wars.

But not wanting to play with certain toys is not a good reason to drive them out of the sandbox.
I guess that depends on if the toys are broken or not... but not my project.
Some of the ideas were inspired, such as the engineering section with two control rooms and ditching the fanon turboshaft tubing routes. Some ideas offered, not so much on inspiration but repetition of fanon/canonfan ideas.

I enjoy discussing Trek, and examining serious creative efforts, artistic and otherwise. Some may debate the merits of these pass-times, but endlessly arguing over mindless minutiae is beyond tedious and above my threshold of interest as a fan. I consider this a serious effort on your part.
Thank you again for your time and effort.
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Old June 4 2008, 05:14 AM   #532
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

One of the biggest mistakes is to confuse Star Trek with hard science fiction. It's certainly had stories that sometimes have a harder science fiction edge than other, certainly a lot harder than its contemporaries (I'll match "Spock's Brain" up against "The Great Vegetable Rebellion" any time), but the truth of the matter is that Star Trek is basically an intelligently written and produced space opera. Enough scientific consistency to be taken seriously and not embarrass itself, but not so dry as to turn into a NASA documentary.

As has been pointed out, Roddenberry made a major point of not overexplaining the technology, mainly for believability purposes (the oft cited example of how Joe Friday doesn't go into detailed explanations of how his .38 service revolver works, so Kirk shouldn't go into detail of how his phaser works, it just does, we see it work, and it's on to the next issue), but also to avoid writing themselves into a corner (why they dropped the idea of laser sidearms; they were already getting some grief from their research folks about how lasers don't work like that).

As such, I don't feel the need to poke into the tech much further than the writers did, other than to draw in a certain level of consistency with other Star Trek incarnations (remember, the original intent of my plans was to be published by Pocket Books), but since Messrs Okuda, Sternbach, et al, started by looking back at what was presented in Star Trek and came to roughly the same conclusions I did, I feel pretty comfortable with my approach. At the very least, I'm in pretty well credentialed company.
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Old June 4 2008, 05:51 AM   #533
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

My preference is and always has been for laying a plausible scientific foundation that is used by writers and editors to set the bounds of what is possible and impossible, but does not become a feature of the story. If I am consulting on a docudrama about the battle between the Monitor and Merrimac, I'll provide the pertinent background. If I am consulting on a science fiction project, I'll help create a believable background. In the one case the facts are there to discern, in the other there is a world to build. The only question is, what will inform the building of that world? Is it the science that describes reality, or some pseudoscience? If I'm trying to create a reality, doesn't it make sense to rely on the tools that describe... reality?

I strongly believe a successful science fiction is first story, and second a richly realized vision of the future. The first is more important than the second, but the second is very important and yet happens far, far too infrequently.
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Old June 4 2008, 06:14 AM   #534
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Is it just me or did this deckplans thread turn into a phisophical discussion on Star Treks status as science fiction?

I'm sorry, but I'm just anxious to see some more of the great work being done here.
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Old June 4 2008, 10:53 AM   #535
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

doctorwho 03 wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but I'm just anxious to see some more of the great work being done here.
Sorry about that... I should be able to start investing time on this again by weeks end.

My two major short term goals are (1) to have clean drawings, all scaled, of the major set elements (including those of sets I don't have direct plans to work from) and (2) a rough placement of most known or assumed areas with the general layout so that we can discuss placement of parts that seem to have no specific reference to their location (like the transporter room/section).

The main reason I digressed on the technical stuff was that one of the things I can't get enough of is seeing tons of different takes on the Enterprise, and aside from this or that different technical rational for things, they are all intrinsically valuable because of their different views. Variety is the spice of life. And while my work is best described by U.S.S. Republic's post, I want it to be known that I really enjoy the works of both Aridas and CRA (which is something that I don't say nearly enough considering how infrequently I post around the forum).

But yeah, I hope to be back on track soon.
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Old June 4 2008, 10:54 PM   #536
Praetor
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Yeah enough with the talky-talky, more pictures please.

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Old June 7 2008, 07:29 PM   #537
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

doctorwho 03 wrote: View Post
Is it just me or did this deckplans thread turn into a phisophical discussion on Star Treks status as science fiction?
Beats the hell out of the typical Star Trek vs. Star Wars discussions, especially those populated by the less-housebroken Star Wars fans.
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Old June 8 2008, 11:55 PM   #538
asdf1
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

These plans look great so far, good luck with the rest of it.
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Old June 12 2008, 03:13 AM   #539
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

This link was posted in another thread and it made me wonder if the signage could mean that the turbo shaft network doesn't reach this far aft and that access from the hanger deck up to the observation decks and the decks below is through vertical only elevators?
I forget how far back they turboshafts go on Shaw's plans to date so I'm not sure how much impact this would have.
Of course "elevators" could just as easily refer to the turbos, but it might be worth thinking about.
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Old June 12 2008, 06:26 AM   #540
Maurice
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
This link was posted in another thread and it made me wonder if the signage could mean that the turbo shaft network doesn't reach this far aft and that access from the hanger deck up to the observation decks and the decks below is through vertical only elevators?
I forget how far back they turboshafts go on Shaw's plans to date so I'm not sure how much impact this would have.
Of course "elevators" could just as easily refer to the turbos, but it might be worth thinking about.
I think those are just dedicated elevators for going from the hangar deck to the observation decks, but while not readable on the show, they ARE features that Shaw might want to consider for his plans.

My guess, based on the show, is that no lift go farther aft than a short distance forward of the hangar's fore wall.
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