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Old March 12 2008, 05:15 PM   #226
Warped9
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

[QUOTE=Shaw;1428747]
B.J. wrote: View Post
I've often found that what fans seem to really want is plans for the Enterprise using today's technology (or within the technological horizons of their lifetime) rather than plans of the Enterprise of 2245.
This is a very astute point and one I agree with.

If you're going to reason out future tech then you can start with the basics of today and then extrapolate into the future. Approach this with a genuine science fiction perspective rather than limited "sci-fi" thinking.

Shaw, I like what you're doing here, buddy. Keep it up.
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Old March 13 2008, 11:39 AM   #227
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw, I went over your renderings more closely yesterday evening and I must say that I'm very impressed. Very well done. :thumbsup:

And I almost missed the part where you used my 26ft. shuttlecraft for reference. I'm gratified to see how well they fit. Neato.

I'm looking forward to see how your project continues to develop.
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Old March 13 2008, 03:22 PM   #228
USS Jack Riley
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
B.J. wrote: View Post
True, but I think you have to take into account the fact that the Enterprise is *entirely* self-sufficient... I would imagine that even in the 23rd century, those kinds of provisions would start to significantly cut into your living space.
But that brings us back to the example of 1930s submarines compared to today's... back in the 1930s the people would have thought that you would have needed massive amounts of space for fuel and air to stay submerged for periods approaching a year at a time. But most of those issues were solved within a span of about 40 years. We are talking about a spacecraft of more than 200 years into the future... are you really saying that we should expect that anything we would consider needed today will be applicable to something that far in the future?
Shaw - To further bolster your point, let us not forget that this was intended to be a 5 year mission. It is well within the current ability of a nuclear powered submarine to stay submerged for years at a time. The only reasons they don't are the inability to feed themselves much beyond 80 - 90 days (in interviewing for JAG positions while in law school I spoke with a CPO who said his longer cruise was about 88 days) and the extremely confined space. Forget the spacious accomodations of the Dallas and Red October in "The Hunt for Red October." the real Dallas' command center is a closet with about 6 - 8 submariners shoehorned in (just based on my own observation - I have never been aboard a sub while underway) and a table that was maybe 2 feet by 2 feet for the Officer on Deck to review navigational charts, etc.

Modern subs receive all fresh water via converted sea water and use excess hydrogen to power fuel cells, not to mention the big honkin' nuclear reactor that generates the majority of the power.

Even TOS writers recognized this (albeit, probably mistakenly). Take at the episode wherein our intrepid heros meet a race that has placed its consciousnesses into spheres (they use Kirk, Spock, and McCoy's bodies to build android bodies for themselves). Kirk has a moment where he is possessed by the leader and afterwards describes an engine capable of powering the Enterprise, but the size of a walnut. Scotty scoffs at this claiming that it isn't possible, but we later learn that this is an extremely advanced race and that they had that very technology.

Same thing applies here. We may not believe it capable at this time, but given the project that Shaw is attempting, we have to be open to the possibility that a ship of that size with a crew of over 400 could feed and maintain itself for at least 5 years.

Just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary (at at these gas prices, they very likely will!!
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Old March 13 2008, 04:37 PM   #229
Irishman
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Plus, don't forget that the modern nuclear subs can go 20 + years before having to refuel. Project that out 200+ years.
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Old March 14 2008, 02:43 AM   #230
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Thanks again for the encouragement guys!

So I was playing around with how things might look on deck 7. Inside the center pressure hull compartment would be sickbay and some of the other life sciences types of stuff.


The outer compartments I've divided up a little differently. There are four compartments (fore, aft, port, starboard) which are associated with external elements on the model... which generally look like windows or hatches. So it seemed like a good idea to isolate those areas to themselves.

If we assume that those are hatches, then they may be there for loading things, so the remaining compartments around the outside (which are oddly shaped enough to make them hard to use for existing sets) could be storage areas or machine bays... or both. Either way, I'll most likely just leave them unoccupied.

I decided to extend out the recovery wards following the angles started on the set plans to see how far they would go... and oddly enough what I ended up with was something not all that different from what we saw in TMP and TWOK for sickbay.

Anyways, this was a deck I hadn't visited yet, so I thought I would share some early ideas.
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Old March 14 2008, 05:42 AM   #231
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I've been following this thread for a while now, and everything I've seen so far is most impressive. The recovery wards are definately interesting. Something you could do with the recovery wards is combine them into one room, that way you'll have room for beds on the left and right sides, like what we saw onscreen.

One question, and this may seem like a stupid one, but would you be willing to include anything depicted in the Franz Joseph technical manual and/or blueprints? Just as a supplement to the main project, of course.
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Old March 14 2008, 06:34 AM   #232
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Nifty layout for Sickbay.

As for recovery wards, I don't there'd be very many of them. Only for those just recovering from surgery (doubt there'd be more than one or two at any given time). Otherwise, they'd be simply sent back to their own quarters to convalesce.

More room for science labs, that way.
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Old March 15 2008, 12:44 AM   #233
TIN_MAN
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Interesting deck plan you've got there, but I think FJ had the right idea for the sickbay layout. Basically, he restored it to the way MJ had (apparently?) originally intended it to be, with the beds following the curviture of the main hallway. It was no doubt partly due to space limitations of the soundstage that resulted in the wall being pulled sharply inward resulting in the layout we saw onscreen, an added bonus of doing this was that it also provided for more practical and/or dramatic camara angles. This is not unlike the decision to move the bridge turbolift over from the centerline behind the captain to its now familiar location 36 deg. offset.
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Old March 15 2008, 02:54 AM   #234
Wingsley
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Thanks again for the encouragement guys!

So I was playing around with how things might look on deck 7. Inside the center pressure hull compartment would be sickbay and some of the other life sciences types of stuff.


The outer compartments I've divided up a little differently. There are four compartments (fore, aft, port, starboard) which are associated with external elements on the model... which generally look like windows or hatches. So it seemed like a good idea to isolate those areas to themselves.

If we assume that those are hatches, then they may be there for loading things, so the remaining compartments around the outside (which are oddly shaped enough to make them hard to use for existing sets) could be storage areas or machine bays... or both. Either way, I'll most likely just leave them unoccupied.

I decided to extend out the recovery wards following the angles started on the set plans to see how far they would go... and oddly enough what I ended up with was something not all that different from what we saw in TMP and TWOK for sickbay.

Anyways, this was a deck I hadn't visited yet, so I thought I would share some early ideas.

I'm curious; why did you choose this particular deck for Sickbay? FJ put it smack in the middle in the saucer on the broadest deck IIRC.

Don't forget the decompression/compression chamber used in "Space Seed" by Khan to torture Kirk, then again in "The Lights of Zetar" to drive the non-corporeal aliens out of Lt. Romaine's body. Also remember in the last act of "The Ultimate Computer", it was shown there's a turbolift across the hallway from the Sickbay's main Emergency Room. I don't agree with the notion that Sickbay would not have more extensive convalescent wards and/or surgery rooms. We have to remember that this is a Starfleet vessel; which, while not specifically designed as a warship, the Enterprise is supposed to be able to handle dangerous situations, including combat. We have seen the Enterprise dispatched on medical supply and rescue missions. These kinds of situations suggest the ship must be able to handle casualties, including the treatment and convalescence of "guests". There's also another possibility: contagious disease. The Enterprise should house a special ICU/isolation ward.

Another item that should be expected near Sickbay would be an airlock, like the one Kirk and Spock used for their spacewalk in TMP.
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Old March 15 2008, 05:59 AM   #235
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

It's a starship, not a hospital ship.
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Old March 15 2008, 06:32 AM   #236
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

It should be noted that in that illustration I was totally braking my own rules by attempting to fill in stuff that wasn't shown... the recovery ward is a three wall set, and in the end I'll most likely use the bed (and wall) arrangement from Tomorrow is Yesterday. In this case I was just wondering how much stuff could be packed in.

April pointed out that that amount of beds wouldn't logically be there as most people who are ill would be returned to their quarters, while Wingsley also makes a good point as to why a number of standing beds would be needed. My guess is that it must be somewhere in between the two... a fare number of standing beds, with recreation and briefing rooms standing in for emergencies.

On the idea that alterations (like the bridge angle and the like) should be made because it was intended to be one way but built another... anyone wanting to figure out another way of doing things is perfectly free to do so. But I'm not planning on looking at this as an Irwin Allen production.

Also, I have no objections to FJ's element being used... I liked his work. I'm just not planning on putting that type of stuff into these plans. Obviously, once one recovery room and the expanded part of another is removed, there is a ton of open space for all sorts of stuff (including things from FJ).

Wingsley wrote:
I'm curious; why did you choose this particular deck for Sickbay? FJ put it smack in the middle in the saucer on the broadest deck IIRC.
I thought I had recalled sickbay's location being on deck 7 having been put forward by some other source, but upon further review, it seems that sickbay is on deck 5.

As that was an embarrassing mistake made on bad assumptions, I've decided to take a little more time and hunt down better sources for what goes where. This list is based on a quick search via dialog, but I'll also take some time to hunt down visual sources for stuff too.

Deck 1
Bridge
Deck 2
Dignitary staterooms (The Enterprise Incident), Pike's old quarters (?)
Deck 3
recreation room (Charlie X, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield)
Deck 4
crew quarters (implied... Ultimate Computer)
Deck 5
recreation room (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield)
Kirk's quarters (Journey To Babel, Mirror, Mirror)
crew quarters (Man Trap)
sickbay (Amok Time, Elaan of Troyius)
Deck 6
Briefing room (Return to Tomorrow, Day of the Dove)
guest quarters (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield)
Deck 7
main energizers (Doomsday Machine)
Deck 8
auxiliary control (I, Mudd)
Deck 9

Deck 10

Deck 11
Jefferies Tube (Journey To Babel)
Deck 12
Rand's quarters (Enemy Within)
Deck 13

Deck 14

Deck 15

Deck 16 (Engineering decks)
-A Deck
Hangar Deck observation gallery
Emergency Manual Monitor room
-B Deck

Hangar Deck
Main Engineering
Deck 17

Deck 18

Deck 19

Deck 20

On the subject of corridor/turbolift placement based on on-screen evidence... the fact that there was little more than a small curved section of corridor with even smaller straight sections at either end makes it pretty much out of the question to attempt to match up that type of stuff. So the only question I'll be addressing is if the main entrance to a set is a corridor or a turbolift. The corridors and turbolift placement will be based on a best guess for arrangement in these plans.
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Old March 15 2008, 10:53 PM   #237
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

As for sickbay being on deck five, I don't recall the reference from 'Elaan of Troyius' but it could be argued that while in 'Amok Time' it is implied sickbay was on deck five, it could also be argued that kirk was simply taking Spock to his Quarters on deck five, since when entering the turbo lift, Kirk did not say "sickbay deck five" but simply "deck five"? Is the referance from 'EOT' more solid? I'll review the ep. later, but if you want to refresh my memory I'd apreciate it.
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Old March 15 2008, 11:24 PM   #238
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
I'll review the ep. later, but if you want to refresh my memory I'd apreciate it.
Actually, the two together make it a stronger argument... this is what was said in Elaan of Troyius:
Kirk: I want you to go to Sick Bay. It's the best protected part of the ship.
Elaan: I want to be by your side.
Kirk: Your presence here is interfering with my efficiency --
my ability to protect you.... Mr. Spock, you have the con.
-Kirk enters turbolift with Elaan-
Kirk: Deck five.
I couldn't find any reference to sickbay on decks other than 5, so in the current absence of contradictions, I'll put it on deck 5 (which still has the same amount of room set aside that I was using on deck 7).

The Amok Time reference has to be taken with the consideration that Kirk had already spoken with McCoy and that had Spock not reported, McCoy would have alerted Kirk. That sort of makes the idea that Kirk was taking him to his quarters a little out of the way... why delay Spock's appointment that he himself had setup? That is the way I looked at it at any rate.

I haven't found a good place for the transporter room yet, so maybe that'll go on 7... I haven't exhausted all the areas I could reference though. The dialog was the fastest reference to search, so I did it first.
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Old March 15 2008, 11:57 PM   #239
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Thanks man! that does pretty much settle the question, at least as far as 'canon' is concerned. Now I'll have to revise my thoughts on the compatability of FJ's work with the aired info; oh well, live and learn.
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Old March 16 2008, 04:28 AM   #240
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
Thanks man! that does pretty much settle the question, at least as far as 'canon' is concerned. Now I'll have to revise my thoughts on the compatability of FJ's work with the aired info; oh well, live and learn.
Franz Joseph's primary reference for locating rooms within the Enterprise seems to have been Stephen E. Whitfield's The Making of Star Trek. At the time, there was no reason to assume that the book was in error, and with no videocassettes or DVDs, it would not have been very easy to discover such errors.
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