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Old March 6 2008, 06:30 PM   #196
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Yes, I know... it isn't an original idea. And I admit that the very first time I saw your cross section over at the Exeter forums the first question I had was "why so few decks?"

But I got one of FJ's first prints of his blueprints in the first grade, carried them around (along with the technical manual) just about every where I went until about 1982... that is a lot of early indoctrination to over come.

And I have to admit, it has taken quite some time to get to a place where I can set aside both FJ's work and all post-TOS Trek, and just look at TOS on it's own.

And just like when I look at the work of Sinclair and Casimiro, when I look at your progress I have to wonder if I actually have anything useful to contribute. I hope so, and really want to make something that other people can use. But I hate reinventing the wheel... or worse, climbing a mountain to find someone else already at the top eating their lunch.

That was why it was so much easier to spend time on the 33 inch or Phase II Enterprise plans... those were unclimbed mountains. In the case of the 11 foot Enterprise and Enterprise deck plans, the best I can hope for is to find a new route to the top (and I can already see that you've taken at least part of this route... oh look, you ate lunch right over there! ).
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Old March 6 2008, 07:17 PM   #197
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Not to derail your thread into a side discussion, but I'd like to point out a couple of things about my proposal that I think you may have missed. In the end, it's your project, of course. And I'm not making the case that this solution is either canon, or definitely what MJ intended -- it's just an interesting possibility. To wit:

The legend on my drawing indicates that the intersection of the conduits at 90 degrees was a "matter of taste" and that I had depicted the structure wider than shown on the set to accomplish this. My proposal wasn't "based on" these junctions being 90 degrees, and so I don't see this as necessarily a deal breaker. In fact, my proposal is based on Jefferies' explicit direction about the location of engineering on his Phase II plans. A location that works very well with the conduits linking up with the pylons somehow.

But, more to the point: does my drawing really not match the set? Let's take a look at your convenient and workman-like application of my drawing to the set photo:


Notice that one of the odd features of the set itself is that the conduits are not all at the same angle. This is part of what I take to be the forced perspective built into the piece. Now every forced perspective design has an optimal viewpoint it is designed for. I think it is pretty obvious that the optimal viewpoint for this set is lower than eye level (like the image), but closer to the grille than this image. The foreground conduits are intended to give the impression that they are taller than they actually are and that you are looking up in to the space behind the grille. Now take a look at the last set of conduits. These are the ones that would be the most distant, and in any perspective scheme (real or forced) would appear closer to their true angle. The further you are from an object, the less the distortion caused by your viewpoint becomes a factor and the closer to a flat, orthographic view you get. So, what "true" angle is suggested by the last set of conduits? It looks pretty close to the angle I have depicted in my drawing. I would argue that this last grouping is a better guide to what the "real" configuration is.

M.
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Old March 6 2008, 07:47 PM   #198
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

It isn't as much that they don't match as I'm mainly trying to avoid filling in blanks on this project. I've always liked your idea, and would use it for a set of plans where I was attempting to fill-in-the-blanks, but for this project, I really want to leave as many blank spaces as possible for others to fill in on their own.

MGagen wrote:
I think it is pretty obvious that the optimal viewpoint for this set is lower than eye level (like the image), but closer to the grille than this image.
That brings up an interesting point... what position do you think the camera would be at for an ideal view of the forced perspective?

When I looked at the floor plan, I just picked the center of the room out of convenience... and not wanting to spend too much time with what looked like a stand-in drawing of the forced perspective element. At some point I'm going to have to sit down and really attack that forced perspective in a shot, and having some other people's ideas about where the ideal location should be would be helpful.

But yeah, I hadn't thought about the forced perspective being applied to the height as well as the distance aspect.
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Old March 6 2008, 08:26 PM   #199
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Don't know if this is helpful or not, but over at StarTrek - Behind the Scenes Restoration under conrtibuters (opt.#3) there's a behind the scenes image of the engine room from "The Enemy Within" that seems to show the grill and power units offset, emplying that, perhaps, there might (hypothetically) be two power units side by side? If so, this might also emply two engine rooms, or maybe the set just wasn't as symetrically perfect as intended? Just food for thought.

Last edited by TIN_MAN; March 6 2008 at 08:38 PM.
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Old March 6 2008, 09:19 PM   #200
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Since I first saw the idea raised, I've decided two things for myself about the engineering set. 1) It really was most likely a forced perspective set (maybe even representing the length of a nacelle, but that's wild speculation) and 2) they never actually used it that way (or at least didn't much), kind of like how you'll have stuff that seemed like a good idea in a pilot that are never heard from again. Because of 2 I tend to think it should be documented "as is", i.e. as it was built rather than what it would "really be" with the forced perspective taken out.
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Old March 6 2008, 09:37 PM   #201
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I wonder...

Wouldn't it be possible to build a replica of the forced perspective set (CG preferrably) and figure out it's "true" length by fiddling with the camera? That way, you would be able to see what it's supposed to look like.

The main problem here isn't actually the set, but rather the actual cameras and lenses they used. Perhaps some of the guys from Hobbytalk would know.
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Old March 7 2008, 12:03 AM   #202
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

TIN_MAN-
The image over at Star Trek History was the one that I used to modify my current back wall from MGagen's (using his as a starting point). While I'm still not sure where the force perspective ideal point is, long/wide shots like these are great for flushing out the additional details of the set itself.

Tallguy-
You're right in that the way the set was shot over the three season pretty much negates the effectiveness of the forced perspective. The only place I'm playing with the possible length is with the deck plans... for the clean up and scaling of the set plans I plan on attempting to illustrate the set piece as-was.

I'll also be including my shuttlecraft interior plans (which I originally did for Starship Exeter) which show the set as built rather than an attempt to reconcile the interior with the exterior. I'm hoping that this type of stuff might come in handy with fan productions.

Mariner Class-
I recall that USS Columbia (aka uss_griffin) had done some reverse engineering that way at one point. Always something to look into.
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Old March 7 2008, 01:59 PM   #203
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

A quick question... I know it's a long shot (and probably not very easy to do), but are you going to consider the weird and wonderful engineering sections we saw in TAS?

Oh.. and what about that particular Jefferies tube Scotty once crawled in to repair the engines (I don't remember the episode name for some reason). There were some hints this particular tube may have been inside the pylon, or at least very close to the engines.
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Old March 7 2008, 02:40 PM   #204
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Harry wrote: View Post
A quick question... I know it's a long shot (and probably not very easy to do), but are you going to consider the weird and wonderful engineering sections we saw in TAS?

Oh.. and what about that particular Jefferies tube Scotty once crawled in to repair the engines (I don't remember the episode name for some reason). There were some hints this particular tube may have been inside the pylon, or at least very close to the engines.
I'll most likely not be addressing the TAS stuff, mainly because you just couldn't get any real idea about scale from the show.

I was thinking about putting the horizontal Jefferies tube between the warp engine support pylons along the spine of the secondary hull.
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I think this will most likely be the last updated scratch sheet for a while, and as such I put a lot of what I had on earlier sheets on this one.


The primary additions to what I had down before are the deck levels of the secondary hull. So between this sheet and this one from awhile back, I think I've touched on (at least in some small way) every deck except deck 7... which should house sickbay. The only real change that I know I'm going to apply to the earlier primary hull decks is Cary's suggestion to break up the turbolift ring on deck 5 so that part of it is on deck 6.

While messy, I think what I've put forward should sort of illustrate where I was planning on going with this. The key elements that I want to address at this point are:
  • Placement of most (if not all) seen areas of the ship.
  • Plausible accommodations for 430 crew members.
  • Space for 4 shuttlecraft.
  • Space for Impulse Engines (assuming that the outlines on the rear of the primary hull are the approximate area needed for them).
Leaving other areas open, I hope that there is enough room for other things that were mentioned but not seen (like 14 science labs).

In addition to plans based on my arrangements, I'll also create a document with empty deck levels and examples of rooms (with variations to help with placement at different radial distances in the primary hull) so that people can really go to town with their own ideas. :thumbsup:
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Old March 7 2008, 05:27 PM   #205
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Not sure if this has been addressed already (I'm far to lazy to read through 10 pages!) but I'm wondering about the two different engineering sets that we've seen and if they were the same room before and after a refit or if they're two (nearly) separate places?
Assuming you've got the scale correct, there seams to be room at either end of the BGCs (Big Giant Conduits) to fit in both facilities. like so.



I know it's not the point of this thread but I can't help speculate the function of the BGCs. Until now I always just assumed they were the bottom end of the warp plasma conduits, sort of like this.

Now I'm wondering if they're actually the deuterium injectors, or maybe the plasma coolant tanks? I'd be interested to know how Rick Sternbach might assign function to some of these features, given his influence on Trek Tech since TNG.
*rubs magic lamp and feeds a really hot cup of tea into the Sternbach Improbability Drive*
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Old March 7 2008, 07:42 PM   #206
Redfern
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
...but I'm wondering about the two different engineering sets that we've seen and if they were the same room before and after a refit or if they're two (nearly) separate places?
Assuming you've got the scale correct, there seams to be room at either end of the BGCs (Big Giant Conduits) to fit in both facilities. like so.
Hmm, now that's an interesting arrangement! If I'm "reading" this diagram correctly, are you suggesting the engineering section we saw in the first season was a facility aft of the "Tubes" with the grille facing towards the bow and the complex seen in the second season onwards is foward of the same "Tubes" with the grille facing towards the stern, both existing at the sme time?

Never have I ever considered that, but it's certainly no more crazy than some of the other layouts presented over the years. Now I have this mental image of someone being "cute" and shouting through the grille to get the attention of someone in the other room without bothering to use the intercom or a communicator.

Sincerely,

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Old March 7 2008, 08:17 PM   #207
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
Not sure if this has been addressed already (I'm far to lazy to read through 10 pages!) but I'm wondering about the two different engineering sets that we've seen and if they were the same room before and after a refit or if they're two (nearly) separate places?
Assuming you've got the scale correct, there seams to be room at either end of the BGCs (Big Giant Conduits) to fit in both facilities. like so.
Ya know, ever since I first saw something like that put forward on April's deck plans, it has really seems like the perfect solution to a lot of consistency issues.

For example, in Doomsday Machine the engine room starts out with the island, but in some of the later scenes it is gone and replaced with a control panel. I know that some of that is reused footage from season one, but there are other examples similar to this throughout the series that could totally be smoothed over by that arrangement.

The other idea I like is aridas sofia's positioning of similar rooms dedicated to either warp or impulse engines.

And that really is why I want this to work out as a platform for people to tryout and share different ideas. April and aridas are both very talented artist, but that shouldn't be the barrier to entry for sharing concepts.

I also like your ideas for what may be along the base of the secondary hull given the markings down there! :thumbsup:
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Old March 7 2008, 10:13 PM   #208
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

A little off topic, but I was doing overlays of the image that Reverend posted and an early cross section by aridas sofia, and I'm a little relieved that the general outlines come pretty close to matching. The outlines that I'm using for the ship's exterior are based on the preliminary work I was doing on a study of the 11 foot model. As such, I had been avoiding comparing them with any other plans to keep from contaminating them with any preconceived ideas. So this marks the first (indirect) comparison so far and I'm quite happy that I'm not way out in left field on this.
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Old March 7 2008, 10:30 PM   #209
MGagen
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
It isn't as much that they don't match as I'm mainly trying to avoid filling in blanks on this project. I've always liked your idea, and would use it for a set of plans where I was attempting to fill-in-the-blanks, but for this project, I really want to leave as many blank spaces as possible for others to fill in on their own.
I don't follow. The conduits have to go somewhere. You're putting them in the drawing. The net effect on "blank space" is the same where ever you put them...

MGagen wrote:
I think it is pretty obvious that the optimal viewpoint for this set is lower than eye level (like the image), but closer to the grille than this image.
That brings up an interesting point... what position do you think the camera would be at for an ideal view of the forced perspective?
I'm sure the forced perspective effect was "eyeballed." I doubt there is any one ideal spot. But the angle change on the foreground conduits that I pointed out implies that they planned to be "looking up at them." The change in angles is just like what you'd get with a wide angle lens tilted upward from the horizon. I can probably knock together a quick 3D model with 45 degree angles throughout that would show roughly the same effect.

Going back to my previous post, I'd like to hear your thoughts on my observation about the rearmost conduits giving the best impression of the "true angle" of the structure; and about Jefferies explicit siting of the engineering room in his Phase II plans.

M.
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Old March 7 2008, 11:42 PM   #210
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

MGagen wrote: View Post
I don't follow. The conduits have to go somewhere. You're putting them in the drawing. The net effect on "blank space" is the same where ever you put them...
But once they disappear into the housing, can anyone really be sure where they go after that? Other than the visible conduits and the housing seen on screen, I'm attempting not to make too much more of what happens in the unseen areas in this project. For all we know, maybe the diamond shaped loop is all that there is... and they move (whatever they are moving) around in a circular pattern.

So in that way, I'm trying to avoid placing in concepts (even ones I favor) that might discourage others from attempting other possible solutions they could come up with.

Going back to my previous post, I'd like to hear your thoughts on my observation about the rearmost conduits giving the best impression of the "true angle" of the structure; and about Jefferies explicit siting of the engineering room in his Phase II plans.
Yes, you are most likely right about the correct angle. If the foreground conduits are intended to display another perspective angle, then yeah, the furthest back set would be the ones to go off of for the true angle.

As for the Phase II engineering location... I have to admit that I had never really looked into that. I've taken into account the size of the hangar deck and the relative deck heights, but I'm not really sure where Jefferies intended engineering to be.

The two problems I have with applying the Phase II plans too much towards engineering have to do with (1) the new angle of the warp pylon supports, and (2) the large bay and hatch placed between where those supports attach to the secondary hull.


So it is one of those things where I'm not quite sure just how much of the internal arrangement was altered for the new warp engines in Phase II.

What it reminds me of is the upgrade procedures done on aircraft carriers. In order to get the engines in and out, large sections of the decks between the flight deck and the engines have to be cut away and later refitted into place. Considering that the support pylons attach at very different points than they did originally, I would think that that type of cutting might have been done for the upgrade.
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