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Old June 27 2008, 06:07 AM   #571
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Actually, it was trying to make Engineering work in the saucer that convinced me that there was no way it could work up there.
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Old June 28 2008, 02:27 AM   #572
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I bet it could work...not the engineering deck we see on tv, but perhaps making a room we didn't see....using bits and pieces of what we know would be in it.
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Old June 28 2008, 06:51 AM   #573
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

It's tough to fit any single room near the impulse engines while still allowing for turbolift and gangway passage, as well as power, data and utility connections.
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Old June 28 2008, 08:15 AM   #574
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

^^^Let alone a two+story room in an area which is only two decks tall and the rim and gets shorter as you go forward (the indented underside of the saucer).
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Old June 29 2008, 09:21 AM   #575
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I did cook up an Engineering-esque room for that area, but there's no way anybody would mistake it for the main engine room.
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Old June 29 2008, 03:18 PM   #576
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

This is going to sound stupid, but what about the dilithium crystal control room seen in "The Alternative Factor"? Couldn't that be the impulse engine room? When Lazarus stole the crystals, the ship didn't loose all its power; it still had warp drive.
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Old June 30 2008, 05:18 AM   #577
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Wingsley wrote: View Post
This is going to sound stupid, but what about the dilithium crystal control room seen in "The Alternative Factor"? Couldn't that be the impulse engine room? When Lazarus stole the crystals, the ship didn't loose all its power; it still had warp drive.
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Old June 30 2008, 05:55 AM   #578
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Wingsley wrote: View Post
This is going to sound stupid, but what about the dilithium crystal control room seen in "The Alternative Factor"? Couldn't that be the impulse engine room? When Lazarus stole the crystals, the ship didn't loose all its power; it still had warp drive.
Actually, I picture that as what the second season engine room area consisted of before the second season refit.

Incidentally, I wouldn't read that episode too closely for tech details. The writers seemed a bit confused about just what part the dilithium crystals played in the power systems (considering how confused the rest of the script is, this shouldn't be surprising).
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Old June 30 2008, 03:38 PM   #579
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I looked at it this way: if dilithium can play a role in focusing matter-antimatter fusion energy for warp drive, why couldn't it play a similar role for impulse drive? Sternbach & Okuda seemed to embed the warp coil technology to impulse engines in their Tech Manual.
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Old June 30 2008, 07:56 PM   #580
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I think that when looking at dilithium crystals it is best to recall the period of time in which TOS was being produced. This was in the early days of lasers, and one of the best examples of a laser back then was the ruby crystal laser. It is quite likely that the idea that spawned dilithium crystals was a crystalline material that could arrange raw energy plasma into an ordered/organized form.

Given that, yeah, I could see where having banks of dilithium crystals for other high energy needs (impulse engines, deflectors, phasers) would be needed (and useful) on the Enterprise.

Going back to the ruby crystal laser as an example again, the thing that was very important was the geometry of the crystal. This could be why we often saw dilithium crystals in a very specific shape (and why using uncut dilithium crystals was considered so dangerous). The other thing to consider might be the grade (or clarity) of the crystals. Lower grade crystals might work fine for certain areas of the ship, but not in powering the warp engines. You might even be able to bypass the main crystals and use a large number of secondary crystals in emergencies... but with an understandable loss in efficiency.

And this is (again) an attempt to try to get into the minds of the stuff on TOS by trying to remember what the world of science looked like from their perspective back then (rather than trying to apply too much of what we know today).
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Old July 1 2008, 06:38 AM   #581
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

All logical and technically sound...except that's not what we were treated to with "The Alternative Factor".

In that turkey, we were given the impression that the dilithium crystals weren't just a critical component of the engine systems, they were THE source of power for the ship (the matter/antimatter reactor was totally ignored).

Again, considering the confused nature of the overall script (probably not helped by the casting problems with John Drew Barrymore flaking out on 'em and having to be replaced at the last minute by Robert Brown), the technical issues being a bit weird, especially for an episode this early in the run, isn't all that surprising.
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Old July 1 2008, 10:55 AM   #582
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

^^^ I seem to remember an old Gold Key comic where they shoveled dilithium like coal into a furnace. In my book, "Alternative Factor" has about the same respect for basic Star Trek technology as had those comics.
Shaw wrote: View Post
I could see where having banks of dilithium crystals for other high energy needs (impulse engines, deflectors, phasers) would be needed (and useful) on the Enterprise.
Going back to the ruby crystal laser as an example again, the thing that was very important was the geometry of the crystal. This could be why we often saw dilithium crystals in a very specific shape (and why using uncut dilithium crystals was considered so dangerous).
I like that idea a lot! We have been shown so widely differing set-ups regarding dilithium that this seems to be the best explanation possible.
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Old July 2 2008, 01:30 AM   #583
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
All logical and technically sound...except that's not what we were treated to with "The Alternative Factor".

In that turkey, we were given the impression that the dilithium crystals weren't just a critical component of the engine systems, they were THE source of power for the ship (the matter/antimatter reactor was totally ignored).
My general guess has been that the opinions of Jefferies and other consultants were taken more seriously by the writers and producers earlier in season one than later (when they started to fall behind schedule).

So while considering the actual set in "The Alternative Factor" I'm taking into account the logic of the engines as discussed by Spock and Scott in "Mudd's Women" (even though they were still talking about lithium crystals).

One of the aspects I notice that is most often overlooked by fans (and later productions) is the ability to transmit power/energy from one place to another without the use of a conduit or the like.

Besides the transporter (which is obviously the most visible example of this) we had examples in both "The Cage" and "The Ultimate Computer". In "The Cage" the ship's power is transmitted to what looks like one of the ship's phaser banks modified for use on the surface (obviously because shooting down from the Enterprise risked cooking Pike). In "The Ultimate Computer" the M5 was getting it's power from the engines, and what would normally be a harmless beam of energy was turned into a hazardous beam that killed Scott's assistant.

Taking into account that that port on the wall of engineering seems to be for energy transfers, I would postulate that the two large pieces of equipment sometimes seen near there are standalone power generators that may serve the purpose of jump starting the engines. They are usually in line with that port and could be transmitting power to the engines via a beam in the same general path as seen in "The Ultimate Computer". And of course as long as everything is running the way it should, their position (or even presence) in engineering doesn't really matter. But in a situation like "The Naked Time" they would play an important part in restarting the engines.

I think that logic covers most of what we saw (with them moving around a lot) without attempting to determine how they generate power on their own (as internally they are as much a black box as other TOS technology).
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Old July 2 2008, 01:41 AM   #584
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Are we talking the big honking suckers off to the side that were present in the first season or the hummer in the middle of the room that showed up in "The Doomsday Machine"? 'Cause that puppy was established in "Elaan of Troyius" to house the dilithium crystals that channel the energy from the matter/antimatter reactor to the warp drive.
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Old July 2 2008, 02:08 AM   #585
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

The one in the center of the room remains fixed (for the most part) in one location, so I figure it is a permanent fixture. I'm thinking of the objects that FalTorPan called transformers in this article. They seem to move around (and are sometimes completely missing) from episode to episode.
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