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Old June 1 2008, 04:29 AM   #511
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, I tend to discount pretty much anything FJ said about Starship engines, but that's just me.
Why? There is something like 9 x 10-¹⁰ joules of energy in every cubic meter of space.

That's 2.7⁶⁹ joules of "space energy" in the universe.
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Old June 1 2008, 08:24 AM   #512
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Mr. Shaw, you might want to step in before another edition of that argument threatens to overwhelm what, up till now, has been a rather enjoyable thread.
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Old June 1 2008, 11:03 AM   #513
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, considering how argumentative I can be, I would hardly think that I would be anyone's first choice for peace maker.

But I should point out that arguing a technical topic can be beneficial to all sides. I've learned a lot from people on the other side of debates even if I was not swayed to their overall position. And as all of us have spent vast amounts of time pondering the original Enterprise and have a great amount of expertise in this subject, I would think that listening to what others have to say should be considered an important resource for all of us.

I mean when you think about it, all of us are either attempting to extrapolate the past or envision a future based on an incomplete set of source information. We all pretty much have those same sources at our disposal, so it is very rare that something new like that will be brought to the table. So in the end the only true source of new and interesting aspects of the Enterprise has to come from we few who spend hours thinking about how it might have been or could possibly be.

So we don't always agree on everything... I don't think that should be cause for splintering us up. It should be the reason to want to return to this subject again and again and again. Because even when not agreeing with something that someone else puts forward, you might find yourself examining an aspect of the Enterprise that you hadn't considered.


Besides, while I'm so tied up that I can't put anything of interest forward, it is great to take this time to look at the subject from a number of other people's perspectives. I mean after all, I'm not just interested in putting forward my ideas, I also want to see what other people come up with after rummaging through all the bits and pieces I've collected.

I don't want my work here to be definitive, I want it to be inspirational.

And part of that inspiration has to come from mixing in different ideas... even those that I may or may not subscribe to myself.


On a completely different note, my attempt at recreating a likeness of the 1964 Jefferies Construction Plans is now online (here). I'm pretty sure that most of you guys have copies of these drawings already, but for those that don't, I wanted to make sure that they were available.
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Old June 1 2008, 03:29 PM   #514
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw, I'm curious why you include only the "dish antenna" front for the secondary hull. I was under the impression that one of the very last things to be changed on the plan for the 33" model, as it went to Datin for building, was to swap the "baby bottle" front for the dish you have shown. Perhaps both this one...



and the dish should be included?

I should also say just how impressed I am by your effort. The idea of integrating the "hull pressure diagram" as interlocking modular parts, with the Jefferies cross section, is wholly original and inspired. I played with that "hull pressure diagram" for a long time, and it never occurred to me to do such a thing, even though I was committed to depicting a modular mode of construction. This way of looking at it is far, far more interesting, better reflects 1960s thinking about space construction techniques, AND incorporates even more of Jefferies thinking about the ship than if you had depended on the cross section alone. I truly think these plans have a chance of being both inspirational AND the definitive word on the TOS ship.

Last edited by aridas sofia; June 1 2008 at 04:15 PM.
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Old June 1 2008, 06:30 PM   #515
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Here's a thought, with all the debate lately stirred by the movie trailer over building the ship on earth, and then (presumebly) launching or lifting the componenets into space, maybe we could consider the abandoned 'baby bottle' nose as an aerodynamic cover used only while launching the secondary hull 'rocket style' into orbit?
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Old June 1 2008, 08:08 PM   #516
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I always figured it was pretty basic, matter+antimatter=ginormous kaboom, the energy of which is used to warp space.

How that translates into some sort of subspace turbojet is beyond me.

Last edited by Captain Robert April; June 1 2008 at 08:24 PM.
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Old June 1 2008, 08:09 PM   #517
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
CRA wrote:

I'll dig up some relevant references when I have more time.
Try this one on for size.

How the hell does a reference to the use of the term "quartermaster" have anything to do with how the warp drive worked?
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Old June 1 2008, 09:34 PM   #518
Philo
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Well, considering how argumentative I can be, I would hardly think that I would be anyone's first choice for peace maker.

But I should point out that arguing a technical topic can be beneficial to all sides. I've learned a lot from people on the other side of debates even if I was not swayed to their overall position. And as all of us have spent vast amounts of time pondering the original Enterprise and have a great amount of expertise in this subject, I would think that listening to what others have to say should be considered an important resource for all of us.

I mean when you think about it, all of us are either attempting to extrapolate the past or envision a future based on an incomplete set of source information. We all pretty much have those same sources at our disposal, so it is very rare that something new like that will be brought to the table. So in the end the only true source of new and interesting aspects of the Enterprise has to come from we few who spend hours thinking about how it might have been or could possibly be.

So we don't always agree on everything... I don't think that should be cause for splintering us up. It should be the reason to want to return to this subject again and again and again. Because even when not agreeing with something that someone else puts forward, you might find yourself examining an aspect of the Enterprise that you hadn't considered.


Besides, while I'm so tied up that I can't put anything of interest forward, it is great to take this time to look at the subject from a number of other people's perspectives. I mean after all, I'm not just interested in putting forward my ideas, I also want to see what other people come up with after rummaging through all the bits and pieces I've collected.

I don't want my work here to be definitive, I want it to be inspirational.

And part of that inspiration has to come from mixing in different ideas... even those that I may or may not subscribe to myself.
I just wanted to say I'm enjoying this discussion immensely and this was an excellent post.

I absolutely love a lot of the ideas flowing forth from this fountain of thought.
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Old June 2 2008, 01:31 AM   #519
ancient
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Well, I tend to discount pretty much anything FJ said about Starship engines, but that's just me.
Why? There is something like 9 x 10-¹⁰ joules of energy in every cubic meter of space.

That's 2.7⁶⁹ joules of "space energy" in the universe.
Because I feel like it. His style of interior technical decorating doesn't appeal to me.
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Old June 2 2008, 01:36 AM   #520
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Great stuff dude, very cool.

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Old June 2 2008, 04:27 AM   #521
Vance
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Only one way to settle this...

Gentlemen, line up at the urinals. Someone get the cold metal ruler.
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Old June 2 2008, 10:20 AM   #522
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Shaw, I'm curious why you include only the "dish antenna" front for the secondary hull. I was under the impression that one of the very last things to be changed on the plan for the 33" model, as it went to Datin for building, was to swap the "baby bottle" front for the dish you have shown. Perhaps both this one...



and the dish should be included?
Well, the main reason was that I was starting with a ton of measurement data that MGagen had supplied and it included specifications for the dish on the secondary hull (which matched the best image I had of that section of the ship). The secondary reason was that while I knew of the baby bottle assembly, I never had as good a reference image as what you just posted to work from.

I do have an image of the top half of what you posted which brings me back to something I was very curious about but lacked additional data for... I've seen two examples of the structure on the top rear of the primary hull, but they have always been profile views. Is there any reference as to what the other dimensions of that structure might be? I always assumed it to be a fin (sort of a heat sink for the impulse engines), but in the absence of better data I wasn't willing to put forward any thing stronger than the fact that it is visible from the side.

I saw that you included it on the Constellation and was wondering if you had any additional data or what your take on that structure is.

I should also say just how impressed I am by your effort. The idea of integrating the "hull pressure diagram" as interlocking modular parts, with the Jefferies cross section, is wholly original and inspired. I played with that "hull pressure diagram" for a long time, and it never occurred to me to do such a thing, even though I was committed to depicting a modular mode of construction. This way of looking at it is far, far more interesting, better reflects 1960s thinking about space construction techniques, AND incorporates even more of Jefferies thinking about the ship than if you had depended on the cross section alone. I truly think these plans have a chance of being both inspirational AND the definitive word on the TOS ship.
Wow! Thanks for saying that. I can't imagine higher praise considering all the cool works you've done in this area.
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Old June 2 2008, 03:26 PM   #523
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw, I don't have a top view of that impulse feature. I assumed in my illustration of the Constellation that it would be similar to the feature eventually placed on the model -- a rounded shape slightly taller than what was eventually used. I was thinking that Jefferies/Datin just trimmed it down a bit and to make it less prominent and integrate it into the saucer a bit better. They seem to have been going over the ship with a fine toothed comb by that stage, adjusting the front of the secondary hull, the angle of the neck, and the impulse detailing. As we all know, that process was ongoing, extending into the first and second pilot and beyond. In fact, I think you could consider even the Phase 2 reworking to in some ways be Jefferies still tinkering with his design, trying to get everything to fit better inside and out.

Getting back to the questions of whether Franz Joseph had anything to contribute as far as laying out a logical, feasible means for the warp nacelles to function, and whether they have anything to tell us about the thinking in the TOS era, I'll only say the following: If you allow him the fact that he was being interviewed, and that the interviewer might not have had a clue what he was talking about, then the description he gives -- at one point of energy being drawn through a system, at another point of energy being drawn around a ship -- comes off as having the inexact nature of quoted speech, instead of poorly thought-out writing. Quite in contrast to what was invented for the TNG tech manual, the idea FJ puts forward holds some water, and once you get through the inexact speech, bears some similarity to what Jesco von Puttkamer says later when he is developing an explanation of warp drive for Phase 2. And as we all know, von Puttkamer's explanation seems to have inspired no less than Miguel Alcubierre to consider whether what was being described was mathematically possible.

CRA says that "matter+antimatter=ginormous kaboom, the energy of which is used to warp space." My understanding is that a M/AM explosion involving anything other than truly enormous amounts of each wouldn't produce nearly the kind of power that current thinking indicates would be needed to warp spacetime -- Alcubierre thought it would take more energy than existed in the universe, and physicist Chris Van Den Broeck finally determined that something like three solar masses worth of energy would be needed to accomplish anything like what Alcubierre had described. But even if you had those three solar masses, warping space isn't enough -- you need to control what you create and keep it from collapsing. So gravity manipulation is involved -- just the sort of thing that FJ seems to be talking about, if you squint and allow him his own colloquial way of describing things.

He's describing a system that would use a M/AM explosion to produce enough energy to create some kind of gravity source. "In theory you would need only a very, very tiny antimatter-starting chamber to start the whole mechanism pulling in energy," he says. "The engine fronts are the source in which the entire energy of the universe in front is taken in..." You'd think he's saying something like a big space jet, until you read further:

When you go at warp drive or hyperlight velocity, you pass the energy of the universe through your system and restore it behind you. Passing it about you, in other words. All you do is pass it around this infinitesimally tiny bubble of your ship. The ship itself can be moving at less than the velocity of light, but with the energy available, it can move the universe past it at any speed you wish to theorize, or imagine.
It's 1976, and he's describing something very similar to what von Puttkamer will set out for Roddenberry a few years later, and what Alcubierre and others have more recently given some mathematical basis. In fact, by telling us the bubble would be "infinitesimally tiny" he is even predicting the refinements to Alcubierre by Van Den Broeck, who adjusted the external geometry of the bubble to lower the energy requirements. I don't know if he had a clue what he was saying, but in 2008, it makes some sense. You have to overlook the clumsy description of passing "the energy of the universe through your system" and read beyond to where he qualifies what he's just said -- "Passing it about you, in other words." He even describes the resulting bubble of spacetime that would be created. He just doesn't invoke the ideas of gravity and antigravity, or negative energy, things are now understood as being necessary to create the kind of effectively FTL drive that doesn't violate relativity's prohibitions.

It's important to remember that Franz Joseph talked directly to Matt Jefferies. He forms an interesting link in a chain between the Rand-researched underpinnings of TOS and what was done by Jesco von Puttkamer for Phase 2 and TMP. CRA says he doesn't like what FJ said, and others point out that FJ doesn't mesh with the TNG-TM explanation, and that's fine. But he wasn't some kind of country bumpkin. Quite the opposite -- those that ignore him and insist he didn't know what he was talking about aren't bothering to figure out just how much he did know, and just how sound some of his ideas were. For someone like Shaw that is limiting himself to TOS-era material, FJ's explanations are right in line with what was later developed for Phase 2. And if the Phase 2 material is fine, so is FJ's explanation of warp drive -- once it is interpreted through von Puttkamer.
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Old June 3 2008, 02:35 AM   #524
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

1) We don't know how in-depth any discussions were between FJ and MJ.

2) It's debatable just how knowledgeable Jefferies was on the theory of warp drive (he hadn't even heard of it when Roddenberry hired him).

3) Just as you don't want to risk an embolism trying to rationalize stuff like lightsabers and Superman's powers with real world science, don't confuse real world physics with Star Trek physics. An ounce of Star Trek antimatter blew away half the atmosphere of a Class M planet. When dealing with Star Trek technology, it's important to deal, first and foremost, with Star Trek's rules of physics, and only consulting the real world when the Star Trek record is lacking.
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Old June 3 2008, 04:58 AM   #525
ancient
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Subspace fixes all.
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