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Old May 28 2008, 05:32 PM   #496
LCARS 24
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Thanks, Vance. I couldn't find the reference I've used in the past on starship volumetric analysis earlier when I was putting those pages together, but I just found and read it. It has a section on "the 190,000-tonne fallacy" that is quite compelling. And their volumetric analysis (by computer, using available meshes) of these two ships and one of known mass puts them at 240,000 for the 1701 and 260,000 for the 1701-A (roughly adjusted from raw calculations of 236,000 and 262,000, respectively). It also cites TrekBBS posts by Rick Sternbach on this issue.

Starship Volumetrics:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

Last edited by LCARS 24; May 28 2008 at 06:12 PM.
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Old May 28 2008, 07:23 PM   #497
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Actually I planned on addressing this issue by completely disregarding all Trek based sources (canon or fandom).

The carrier Bush was assembled in sections, so I planned on using the weight of those sections to determine the weight of both the primary and secondary hulls.

Once I have those figures, I was going to move forward based on a single premise... the arrangement of the warp engines and secondary hull are determined by the location of the impulse engines.

That is to say, I'm assuming that the impulse engines are already directly in line with the center of mass of the primary hull, so the placement of the other elements (warp engines and secondary hull) must balance at the same point to make sure that the firing of the impulse engines doesn't sent the ship spinning off end over end.

The system of masses would look something like this...


There are two ways of figuring this out... mathematically or experimentally. And right now I'm leaning toward the experimental method (as it would actually be more fun ).

Basically you construct a model with the primary and secondary hulls at the correct proportional weights, and you have basically empty warp engines to start with. Take a rod (pointing upwards) and set the model on the rod at the location of the impulse engines. Add weight (evenly) to the warp engines until the model balances perfectly pointing straight upwards. Compare the final weight of the warp nacelles to the comparative weights of the primary and secondary hulls to find out what they must have weighed to force that configuration and then add up all the weights.

While I'm assuming that the relative placement of the warp engines to each other is determined by how they function, I'm also assuming that the relative placement of all the other elements would revolve around the ship's ability to maneuver efficiently at impulse.

Anyways, I haven't gotten around to working any of that stuff out yet, so all I have is a general idea of how I plan on proceeding at this point.
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Old May 29 2008, 05:07 AM   #498
LCARS 24
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Assuming that the verterium cortenide in the warp coils is much denser than the structural materials of a starship (giving the nacelles a substantially higher specific gravity than the rest of the ship), I suppose you could tie weights (with string) to the rear of the nacelles of a plastic model, hold it in one hand, tilt it forward up with the weights dangling, then take it by the impluse outlets with two skyward-pointed fingers of the other hand and balance it--if the ship is designed properly with the considerations you suggest. There was a toy many years ago called Magic Skyhook that used odd weight distribution to give an unexpected effect when held by one finger. This test with a plastic model is akin to that.

But the point is that a model should hang straight when balanced on the impulse outlets if the nacelles are weighted down and at an angle if not.

Last edited by LCARS 24; May 29 2008 at 05:17 AM.
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Old May 30 2008, 03:08 AM   #499
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

LCARS 24 wrote: View Post
Assuming that the verterium cortenide in the warp coils...
TOS never mentioned warp coils or technobabblium making them up. As such, it's perhaps more accurate to propose that some components in the nacelles may be denser that other materials in the ship.
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Old May 30 2008, 05:59 AM   #500
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, the material the warp coils is made of was mentioned by Chakotay once. Take that for what it's worth...
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Old May 30 2008, 05:08 PM   #501
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I'd say the more substantial issue would be fuel. A Federation Starship would have to carry enough fusionable matter (presumably deuterium) and antimatter to power the ship for a sustained voyage.

Shaw, your drawings are very illuminating. Looks like the TOS Enterprise must've stored a significant quantity of fuel in the forward half of the warp nacelles, and also some reserves in the outboard compartments of the saucer and secondary hull. Maybe it's time to assume, unlike TNG, that fuel storage aboard a starship is decentralized to balance the ship's mass. (It would make sense to store at least some fuel in the saucer for the impulse engines and photon torpedoes anyway.)
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Old May 30 2008, 06:09 PM   #502
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

^ Slush tanks in the saucer? Got those in my version...
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Old May 30 2008, 06:37 PM   #503
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Franz Joseph said:

The engine fronts are the source in which the entire energy of the universe in front is taken in and passed in a loop through the vehicle. The energy is utilized to operate the machinery while passing through this loop, and then put out the back and restored exactly as it was when picked up in front.
At various times, I've dismissed this statement, thought it a hamfisted explanation of something with more substance, and wondered if there might be anything there. Of late I've been sitting in the hospital with an IV in my arm, fighting a damned antibiotic-resistant infection, and occasionally looking at this website on a Blackberry. Wingsley's latest post got me thinking about ol' Franz and the above comment.

Really, if the ship bends spacetime around it, and if the nacelles are the prime actors in this process, then it's easy to see how an intense gravity source at the nacelle dome would not only start the space warping process into motion, but also draw whatever goodies float on the surface of spacetime into the nacelle's maw. Franz says it sucks in the energy of the entire universe, and by equating mass with its energy alter ego you can pretty clearly see how this isn't far from true. Maybe not the entire universe, maybe just your local part, but still all the energy/matter in that part.

So, if you're bending space towards you, you are sucking fuel towards you. It might not be enough to make the system self sustaining, and I think the ship would carry an onboard, superdense fuel supply. But I think that superdense fuel supply isn't all there is. In warping space, the ship would also partly replenish its fuel supply -- enough to take a "truck" that might otherwise get five gallons to the mile and turn it into one that might get ten miles to the gallon. Eventually fuel would run out, but it would take longer than if this space-bending process wasn't going on.

This setup has made me rethink calling anything in front of the nacelle a "Bussard collector," and drawn me back to Franz Joseph's term "sink". Also, I think the place for this "collecting" should be in those "ridges" immediately behind the dome. The dome should be the hypergravity source, and the ridges should draw off whatever goodies the dome sucks in.
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Old May 30 2008, 06:52 PM   #504
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Problem: That's now how the functioning of the warp drive is described in the show. And that's kinda the point of these projects, to figure out a way to make what we saw and heard on the show work. I'm sure all of us here could come up with a thousand different ways to design a starship and figure out what makes it go, but those aren't the toys we find in the sandbox at this time. We're stuck with the Enterprise.

It might do for an explanation of how the Romulan warp drive works, with its artificial singularity, but the Enterprise's engines have been explicitly described as being powered by matter/antimatter annihilation. FJ's design provides for neither the matter, nor the antimatter.
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Old May 30 2008, 07:14 PM   #505
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Problem: That's now how the functioning of the warp drive is described in the show. And that's kinda the point of these projects, to figure out a way to make what we saw and heard on the show work. I'm sure all of us here could come up with a thousand different ways to design a starship and figure out what makes it go, but those aren't the toys we find in the sandbox at this time. We're stuck with the Enterprise.

It might do for an explanation of how the Romulan warp drive works, with its artificial singularity, but the Enterprise's engines have been explicitly described as being powered by matter/antimatter annihilation. FJ's design provides for neither the matter, nor the antimatter.
I'm sorry... I didn't recall that the warp drive was ever explained to that extent in TOS. And since it was my impression that it was Shaw's intent to describe the Enterprise as it was portrayed in that show, and only that show, I thought there was some latitude.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood.

And FYI, the use of matter and antimatter was explicitly provided for in Franz Joseph's explanation.

How we do this--the methods involved--I haven't the foggiest idea. The matter and antimatter drive--that's one fancy phraseology which sounds like it embraces massive explosions. It strains the imagination. We shall use it, however, to keep it in there. But in theory you would need only a very, very tiny antimatter-starting chamber to start the whole mechanism pulling in energy. Dilithium crystals are very unstable, so with a starting chamber full of dilithium, a few added atoms of antimatter will provide the driving force to get the whole system charged up and sucking in space energy.
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Old May 30 2008, 10:19 PM   #506
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Really, if the ship bends spacetime around it, and if the nacelles are the prime actors in this process, then it's easy to see how an intense gravity source at the nacelle dome would not only start the space warping process into motion, but also draw whatever goodies float on the surface of spacetime into the nacelle's maw...
So if I'm reading this right, the dome in the front starts the warping of space-time... then the addition of the rear dome could be designed to help restore space-time behind the ship (in the same way that rear spoilers are designed to keep from creating a vacuum behind a vehicle that would reduce it's efficiency).

It wouldn't be originally recognized that restoring space-time would be of any benefit, so the earlier starships would have been missing this feature.

This sort of reminds me of what happen to the Porsche 928 (which though originally looked fast, actually had a drag coefficient equivalent to a stationwagon) or even commercial jet aircraft before the addition of the winglets (which as I recall started popping up on aircraft in the 1980s to help reduce fuel costs). The benefits wouldn't make themselves obvious while on the drawing board, but would become clear as a result of data from actual operations.

I don't know about anyone else, but I like the geometry of this (even if it runs counter to later Trek) and the placement of the matter/antimatter collection gives a nice explanation of those parts as well.

Specially when you take into account the existence of virtual pairs. Everywhere in the universe a pair of matter and antimatter particles pop into and then out of existence. Their life span is so short that they are undetectable, but in areas where space-time is warped significantly, their life spans can be either increased, or they can be pulled apart from each other.

Because of conservation of energy, you wouldn't get these antimatter particles for free... but it would make for a nice way to supplement a ship's supply.


Of late I've been sitting in the hospital with an IV in my arm, fighting a damned antibiotic-resistant infection, and occasionally looking at this website on a Blackberry.
On a completely ungeekie note, I'm sorry to here about your stay in the hospital and hope for your quick recovery.
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Old May 31 2008, 10:06 PM   #507
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
I'm sorry... I didn't recall that the warp drive was ever explained to that extent in TOS. And since it was my impression that it was Shaw's intent to describe the Enterprise as it was portrayed in that show, and only that show, I thought there was some latitude.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood.
I'll dig up some relevant references when I have more time.

And FYI, the use of matter and antimatter was explicitly provided for in Franz Joseph's explanation.

How we do this--the methods involved--I haven't the foggiest idea. The matter and antimatter drive--that's one fancy phraseology which sounds like it embraces massive explosions. It strains the imagination. We shall use it, however, to keep it in there.
He just dismissed the whole matter/antimatter bit as technobabble.

But in theory you would need only a very, very tiny antimatter-starting chamber to start the whole mechanism pulling in energy. Dilithium crystals are very unstable, so with a starting chamber full of dilithium, a few added atoms of antimatter will provide the driving force to get the whole system charged up and sucking in space energy.
Since when have dilithium crystals EVER been described as "unstable"?

Sorry, but it looks like the amount of research FJ did for his plans was even less than originally thought.
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Old May 31 2008, 10:51 PM   #508
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

CRA wrote:

I'll dig up some relevant references when I have more time.
Try this one on for size.

[FJ] just dismissed the whole matter/antimatter bit as technobabble.
Nope. He said "We shall use it, however, to keep it in there." You wrote that "FJ's design provides for neither the matter, nor the antimatter," and he said he would be using it to keep it there. Not remotely the same thing.

Since when have dilithium crystals EVER been described as "unstable"?
It depends on whether you consider them cracking and getting scorched beyond repair every time the ship gets into a serious scrape to mean "unstable" or just "easily prone to damage".
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Old May 31 2008, 11:27 PM   #509
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Really, if the ship bends spacetime around it, and if the nacelles are the prime actors in this process, then it's easy to see how an intense gravity source at the nacelle dome would not only start the space warping process into motion, but also draw whatever goodies float on the surface of spacetime into the nacelle's maw...
So if I'm reading this right, the dome in the front starts the warping of space-time... then the addition of the rear dome could be designed to help restore space-time behind the ship (in the same way that rear spoilers are designed to keep from creating a vacuum behind a vehicle that would reduce it's efficiency).
Yeah, you've got it right. However, I believe the "restoration" part is essential -- the ship needs to almost close the bubble to make anything like a wormhole. So, I'd say even the nacelles without the domes at the aft end had them -- just inside. The vents might have been openings through which they worked.

It wouldn't be originally recognized that restoring space-time would be of any benefit, so the earlier starships would have been missing this feature.
Instead of the rear dome being the innovation on the series 1701, I'd suggest it be the spinning fan and multiple blinking lights. That really seems to be unique to that ship, among all other Trek ships. I like to think of the lights as individual microsingularities, blinking into and out of existence, and the fan as a kind of "Podkletnov" gravity shield, directing the attractive force of those microsingularities forward and around the saucer.

But following a "black box" approach, these things might just go nameless. It is nevertheless very cool that there are features on that model that sensibly link to contemporary ideas about gravity manipulation.

Of late I've been sitting in the hospital with an IV in my arm, fighting a damned antibiotic-resistant infection, and occasionally looking at this website on a Blackberry.
On a completely ungeekie note, I'm sorry to here about your stay in the hospital and hope for your quick recovery.
Thanks very much. I'm home now, but I'll tell you, take my advice -- don't get any antibiotic resistant infections. I'm a big, strong guy that had never been admitted to a hospital, and this thing leveled me like being hit by a bus.
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Old June 1 2008, 01:10 AM   #510
ancient
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, I tend to discount pretty much anything FJ said about Starship engines, but that's just me.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go suck in some space energy.
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