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Old April 4 2008, 04:41 PM   #361
Vance
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Um.. guys...

I don't think that the 'ship's stores' literally meant a STORE in the Wal*Mart definition of the word, but the naval definition, which is quoted below:

5.stores, supplies of food, clothing, or other requisites, as for a household, inn, or naval or military forces.
The 'store' that you guys are talking about we've actually seen very early on in Trek.. the promenade on K-7. The Enterprise, though, seems to have a supply section of the ship, controlled by the Quartermaster.
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Old April 4 2008, 05:00 PM   #362
Warped9
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Vance wrote: View Post
Um.. guys...

I don't think that the 'ship's stores' literally meant a STORE in the Wal*Mart definition of the word, but the naval definition, which is quoted below:

5.stores, supplies of food, clothing, or other requisites, as for a household, inn, or naval or military forces.
The 'store' that you guys are talking about we've actually seen very early on in Trek.. the promenade on K-7. The Enterprise, though, seems to have a supply section of the ship, controlled by the Quartermaster.
Bingo. That's how I've always interpreted the reference in TOS.
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Old April 4 2008, 06:04 PM   #363
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Vance wrote: View Post
Um.. guys...

I don't think that the 'ship's stores' literally meant a STORE in the Wal*Mart definition of the word, but the naval definition, which is quoted below:

5.stores, supplies of food, clothing, or other requisites, as for a household, inn, or naval or military forces.
The 'store' that you guys are talking about we've actually seen very early on in Trek.. the promenade on K-7. The Enterprise, though, seems to have a supply section of the ship, controlled by the Quartermaster.
Thank you!
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Old April 4 2008, 07:40 PM   #364
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote:
I still stand by the assertion that what we might call a "creature comfort" is to the modern 23rd century Federation citizen what having a knife, fork and plate is to us.
Plus given the fabrication technology at their disposal, it seams giving cargo space over to "useless" items seams very inefficient compared to the more logical practice of storing raw materials in bulk and using them to fabricate whatever as and when it's wanted/needed, with the option to recycle object that are no longer wanted/required.
I don't recall stating anywhere that I thought that all this stuff was loaded onto the ship pre-made, but after a while Bloke would most likely have a good idea of what things are most requested and having such items on hand rather than making them on demand would be prudent. After all, all fast food could be made on demand, but good managers will prepare for a rush on popular items by making them early.

But this isn't the Enterprise D, and it doesn't have perfect fabrication abilities. The ability to create gems (as brought up in Catspaw) would seem to be pretty easy (as they are very basic). On the other hand, processing turkey and Rand's favorite perfume (as in Charlie X) proved to be more than they were able to do. But they still have perfume on hand (just not an infinite variety).

And you brought up the Nazi uniform... the boots made for McCoy didn't fit correctly. Which shows that just like today, if you rush in making something, the quality suffers.

Plus, who is to say that shopping requires inventory on hand... people could browse holographic representations of possible items, and then discuss what it would take to get such an item made.

Now, are we talking about strictly the Navy (or Starfleet) version of the Quartermaster? Lets run this through a quick test to see if it is or isn't...
1. Does the Quartermaster/Purser deal with both crew and civilians? (YES/NO)
2. Does the Quartermaster/Purser keep non-duty related things like perfume on hand? (YES/NO)
3. Does the Quartermaster/Purser in today's navy run the stores onboard ships (like the example I linked to earlier)? (YES/NO)
4. Does the Quartermaster/Purser deal with civilian mail at remote outposts? (YES/NO)
If the answer is to all of those is YES, then maybe we are... but if there was any NOs, then maybe we are talking about something different.

Is this like a Wal-mart or K-mart?

That wasn't what I was thinking by any stretch. It would serve the role of a frontier town store, you go to it (or in this case, it comes to you) for most of your basics, it has a few odd items above and beyond those (as I said, comfort items like perfume), it is where you might place an order for more specialized items (that aren't carried onboard and can't be fabricated, like the main circulation pump from Devil in the Dark), and postal services (sending and receiving packages like in Dagger of the Mind... though they didn't come on board to receive or drop off packages). So while some items (like clothes) could be made relatively quickly (though faster means the possibility of errors), other items (like perfume, phaser 2s, and an out dated circulation pump as examples) are either too hard to do quickly or beyond what is possible.


On a side note, I don't trust private enterprises in these areas. I look at companies like Halliburton and KBR as complete wastes of tax payers' money. How in the world did anyone get fooled into believing that for profit companies would do things either better or cheeper than a not-for-profit organization? They have to make a profit, so you are almost assured that when they start cutting corners, their margins will be the last thing to be cut (while safety seems to often be at the top of the list). So my general feeling is that other than things that are just so specialized that there is just no way to have that ability within the military itself (like aircraft construction), those areas should be divorced from the private sector. In other words, the military should be able to run it's own kitchens rather than have to pay KBR for that.

So yeah, while I'm sure that there are traders and other private enterprises out there in the TOS universe, I really doubt that anyone effectively marooned on some planet would want to risk their lives on any of these people.

Sure, if you're intentionally limiting yourself to purely what was seen in TOS then the other references don't apply. Personally I'm so used to thinking of them as one cohe...uh...vague related whole, that it becomes difficult to think of the shows as separate entities.

-and-

Thank you!
Remember, if you don't like what I'm doing, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing there own stuff. Heck, you can use as much of my stuff as you like (within the very liberal terms of the license I've used on my work), so arguing these points beyond where I'm willing to go is pointless.

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Shaw One other question I had for you, totally unrelated to the above. Does the placement of the "rust ring" on the dorsal side of the primary hull lend itself to being the doors that blow off to allow escape boats or life pods to quickly evacuate the ship?
Actually, no... it is just different paneling that weathered differently than the older paneling.

I don't believe that TOS had lifeboats or the like. We aren't talking about ships in the same way that a ship on the ocean could sink... these ship's don't sink (what would they sink into?). Every compartment is able to support itself in case of an emergency, so that covers keeping people safe. In the case of the warp engines blowing up (or the like), the primary hull would be the lifeboat.

The other thing is that these compartments (specially the ones on the outer edge) are completely replaceable. The windows on the outer edge of the primary hull changed and sky light types of windows were added... those changes only effected the outer most ring of the primary hull, so maybe those compartments were replaced. And in the process, the material used to replace the ship's outer skin in those areas weathered differently than the rest of the ship (leaving the rust ring we see later).

It also means that when looking at the Constellation in TOS, the damage wasn't all that bad (totally fixable). And the wider primary hull in TMP works if wider outer compartments were used when refitting the ship.

Having these compartments solves a ton of issues in TOS... and even in Phase II and TMP.

If memory serves, a true standing navy didn't come about until the War of 1812 and the ships that were used (among them the USS Constellation and her sister ship the USS Constitution...
One shouldn't forget that before 1812 we had to deal with pirates from the Barbary States (and was what led to the formation of the Marines as a standing force as I recall).
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Old April 6 2008, 12:31 PM   #365
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I'd been considering the topology of the turbolift network for a while, and one of the main issues has been figuring out which should come first... the layout of the rooms and corridors or the turbolift network. I've come to the conclusion that they need to be addressed concurrently. So while the large scale structure of the network can be outlined (as seen below), some of the finer details on certain decks will have to wait for when I address other aspects of those decks.

Still, I have enough put together to at least share the general structure so far.

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Old April 6 2008, 01:08 PM   #366
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

On the whole subject of the ships stores/civilian shop. While I concede that they probably would extend such a service, I disagree that they'd have a facility specifically dedicated to said service. It's not like they often carry non-starfleet passengers on a regular basis or in any significant numbers and they may visit only a handful of colonies in an given year. Whatever they use for normal fabrication/recycling should suffice. I only mentioned the Nazi uniform as off the top of my head it seamed the most elaborate case of "away clothes", not just for the clothes so much as the paraphernalia. As for McCoy's boots, as I recall they were the right size, he just didn't know how to put on jackboots.

As for the turboshafts, it's an tnteresting layout, however I think it needs a little more in terms of redundancy and alternate routes, keeping in mind there could be, say a dozen or so cars whizzing about the place at any one time. Just to avoid bottlenecking as much as possible without ending up with more turboshafts than corridors. A tricky balancing act to be sure.
Also, I wonder if there shouldn't be a place for spare turbo cars to park off the main network, like the odd alcove or lay-by so if two cars are going in opposite directions down the same stretch, one can wait for the other to pass. There may even be a workshop where they go in for maintenance, somewhere in the secondary hull I imagine.
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Old April 6 2008, 02:23 PM   #367
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
As for the turboshafts, it's an tnteresting layout, however I think it needs a little more in terms of redundancy and alternate routes, keeping in mind there could be, say a dozen or so cars whizzing about the place at any one time. Just to avoid bottlenecking as much as possible without ending up with more turboshafts than corridors. A tricky balancing act to be sure.
Also, I wonder if there shouldn't be a place for spare turbo cars to park off the main network, like the odd alcove or lay-by so if two cars are going in opposite directions down the same stretch, one can wait for the other to pass. There may even be a workshop where they go in for maintenance, somewhere in the secondary hull I imagine.
Ummm... Wow. This is a joke, right?

Even unfinished, with three complete loops and (for the few semi-complete decks of the primary hull) 20 alcoves off the main paths, 12 turbolifts would be no problem. The design is such that every turbolift station (other than ones at an end of a branch) lets cars pull out of the way of traffic.

As more decks get developed, more alcoves will be added, but I had envisioned way more than 12 turbolifts running around considering that a vacant one needs to be at least 15 seconds away from any station at any time.



Anyways... I thought it might be helpful to those having problems visualizing this layout to see a more 3D type of representation of the network so far.

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Old April 6 2008, 02:40 PM   #368
FalTorPan
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
As for the turboshafts, it's an tnteresting layout, however I think it needs a little more in terms of redundancy and alternate routes, keeping in mind there could be, say a dozen or so cars whizzing about the place at any one time. Just to avoid bottlenecking as much as possible without ending up with more turboshafts than corridors. A tricky balancing act to be sure.
Also, I wonder if there shouldn't be a place for spare turbo cars to park off the main network, like the odd alcove or lay-by so if two cars are going in opposite directions down the same stretch, one can wait for the other to pass. There may even be a workshop where they go in for maintenance, somewhere in the secondary hull I imagine.
Ummm... Wow. This is a joke, right?

Even unfinished, with three complete loops and (for the few semi-complete decks of the primary hull) 20 alcoves off the main paths, 12 turbolifts would be no problem. The design is such that every turbolift station (other than ones at an end of a branch) lets cars pull out of the way of traffic.

As more decks get developed, more alcoves will be added, but I had envisioned way more than 12 turbolifts running around considering that a vacant one needs to be at least 15 seconds away from any station at any time.



Anyways... I thought it might be helpful to those having problems visualizing this layout to see a more 3D type of representation of the network so far.

I'm impressed by your design ingenuity -- far less so by your often overly harsh attitude toward constructive criticism.
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Old April 6 2008, 03:11 PM   #369
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
I'm impressed by your design ingenuity -- far less so by your often overly harsh attitude toward constructive criticism.
I guess it depends on what you consider constructive... Reverend posted about a half hour after I put up the first network layout and he suggested things that were already part of the design. It is sort of like showing someone an idea for a car and they turn around and say it would be cool if you put wheels on it (when they are already there).

Frankly, I'm still hoping it was a joke.

But I would point out that this layout was given constructive criticism by you and Cary back on page three which was used to revise my original idea.

Constructive criticism should be able to withstand constructive criticism, just as much as any of my original work can. The best constructive criticism proves itself as being able to withstand scrutiny, and the only way to scrutinize is to question what is being put forward. If people are looking to be drive-by critics, they shouldn't expect to be taken seriously.

Reverend has contributed a lot, but in his very first post in this thread he said that he wasn't going to read the first 10 pages (where we talked about a lot of this stuff). So sure, he might not have read all of that, but the elements he suggested are still quite clearly on the plans... which leaves me hoping for another option other than he would have written what he wrote no matter what I put up.

If that is overly harsh, there isn't much I can do about it.
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Old April 6 2008, 06:57 PM   #370
TIN_MAN
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

A few thoughts, the deck five and six turbo shaft layouts look sort of like crop circles. But seriously, so far so good, are you considering putting some shafts on the outer edge of deck five and six when you get further along? Otherwise it seems there's a lot of distance to walk (or run) to get to a T/L station. Keep up the good work.
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Old April 6 2008, 07:15 PM   #371
FalTorPan
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw, perhaps my previous post was overlay harsh. If so, then I apologize.

On to your work... I like your turbolift layout very much. The partial rings that interconnect on different levels is basically a "spiral staircase" design that works well. I'm a fan of virtually all Trek deck plans that I've seen over the years, but I also think that many deck plan designs tend to partition the saucer decks too severely -- providing rapid access throughout the ship via turbolift, but hindering access within a single deck when traveling on foot. In my eyes, the worst offender is Deck F from the Starstation Aurora NCC-1701-A deck plans, which are very cool as a whole.

My gut feeling is that your design might require a bit more redundancy in order to accommodate criss-crossing cars, but without modeling the system in actual use, we cannot know whether this would actually be required.

Come to think of it, it might be fun to model crew movements within a starship interior, using crowd simulation software and knowledge of shift-change times, crew assignments to various stations, and deployment requirements during various alert scenarios... but that's a different topic altogether.
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Last edited by FalTorPan; April 6 2008 at 07:30 PM.
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Old April 6 2008, 07:39 PM   #372
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
As for the turboshafts, it's an tnteresting layout, however I think it needs a little more in terms of redundancy and alternate routes, keeping in mind there could be, say a dozen or so cars whizzing about the place at any one time. Just to avoid bottlenecking as much as possible without ending up with more turboshafts than corridors. A tricky balancing act to be sure.
Also, I wonder if there shouldn't be a place for spare turbo cars to park off the main network, like the odd alcove or lay-by so if two cars are going in opposite directions down the same stretch, one can wait for the other to pass. There may even be a workshop where they go in for maintenance, somewhere in the secondary hull I imagine.
Ummm... Wow. This is a joke, right?

Even unfinished, with three complete loops and (for the few semi-complete decks of the primary hull) 20 alcoves off the main paths, 12 turbolifts would be no problem. The design is such that every turbolift station (other than ones at an end of a branch) lets cars pull out of the way of traffic.

As more decks get developed, more alcoves will be added, but I had envisioned way more than 12 turbolifts running around considering that a vacant one needs to be at least 15 seconds away from any station at any time.



Anyways... I thought it might be helpful to those having problems visualizing this layout to see a more 3D type of representation of the network so far.

Apologies, that's much easier to visualise than in 2D. For some reason I didn't see that the arcs in the saucer make a staggered loop.
I took the alcoves to be actual stops, I didn't realise they were waiting points. FalTorPan, no need to fret on my behalf, no offence was taken, but thanks all the same.
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Old April 6 2008, 07:43 PM   #373
FalTorPan
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
Apologies, that's much easier to visualise than in 2D. For some reason I didn't see that the arcs in the saucer make a staggered loop.
I took the alcoves to be actual stops, I didn't realise they were waiting points. FalTorPan, no need to fret on my behalf, no offence was taken, but thanks all the same.
Group hug, everyone!

Just kidding. Everyone but me has cooties.
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Old April 6 2008, 09:07 PM   #374
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

TIN_MAN wrote:
Otherwise it seems there's a lot of distance to walk (or run) to get to a T/L station.
Well, because heavy equipment can be moved with anti-grav units and because walking is good exercise, I figured that the outer rings (which house mainly junior officers and enlisted cabins) would be the only section of the ship without direct turbolift access.

The main issue I had (beyond it eating more space) was that the primary access to the outer ring of deck 6 is via stairways from deck 5, so a turbolift going to ring 4 would bisection one of the compartments of ring 3 (which runs against compartments being able to be self contained units in emergencies). The compartments of that one ring are the only example of a compartment being effectively a single deck, which handicapped them quite a bit already.

FalTorPan wrote:
My gut feeling is that your design might require a bit more redundancy in order to accommodate criss-crossing cars, but without modeling the system in actual use, we cannot know whether this would actually be required.
One of the things that can over come traffic issues is traffic rules... for example loops are all one way, while branches are two way, cars leaving a branch give right of way for cars arriving, and other than two cars arriving at the same time, multi-alcove intersections should never have more than one stationary car (because that one car can serve more than one station). The rings would be holding patterns for most of the cars not in use, and if an occupied car passes a station calling for a car, it has to stop unless all six of the control handles are in use.

And even with all that automation, I assume that there is a dedicated turbolift service area and control center (otherwise why would Kirk have yelled at Uhura to get the bridge tube cleared?). I was thinking that a couple of stop stations would exist to pull cars during low traffic periods without completely pulling them (like for maintenance).

Reverend wrote:
Apologies, that's much easier to visualise than in 2D. For some reason I didn't see that the arcs in the saucer make a staggered loop.
See, this is what happens when you skip meetings!

FalTorPan wrote:
Group hug, everyone!
I had planned on those taking place on deck 7!
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Old April 6 2008, 09:25 PM   #375
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Anyways... I thought it might be helpful to those having problems visualizing this layout to see a more 3D type of representation of the network so far.

Nice work... I've found that the good ol' "3D perspective" helps sell my less-3D-inclined peers and bosses when doing this professionally, too...

The only thing better would be to be able to actually pan/zoom the 3D model. Dunno if you've ever looked into anything like this, but I'd suggest that you consider putting your work out as a "3D PDF" file.

For any of you who aren't familiar with this... it costs to get the "writable" version but you can view the output with your basic Adobe Reader application that almost all of us have. There's lots of info on this page, plus you can download a "demo" PDF file that will show you just what you can (and CAN'T) do with it.

One nice feature is the ability to lock out features you don't want the end-user to have... for instance, to be able to alter the contents in any fashion... even to prevent people from making copies, as I understand.

There is other software out there which can do this as well, but the nice thing about this particular one is that it's basically OpenGL-based. That is... if your software package is capable of rendering in OpenGL, this application will simply intercept the OpenGL output of the application and create your 3D model from that, so it's pretty much totally application-independent. Everything else I've tried lacks that particular ability.

Go to this page to check it out...
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat3d/

(DISCLAIMER - No, I don't work for Adobe or get any form of "kickback"... I just like the abilities of the software! )
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