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Old April 1 2008, 04:53 AM   #331
QuinnTV
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Vance wrote: View Post
And, of course, Green Orion Slave Woman Porn!

But, ya know, Uhura sees everyone's subspace cable charges.
She must have stashed a fortune in bribe/hush money.
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Old April 1 2008, 02:31 PM   #332
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

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I suppose you could say these aren't windows but holographic screens, to help open up the room a bit and guard against claustrophobia. It's a stretch, but better than trying to match it to the exterior windows and it frees the windows on the saucer perimeter for common areas.
That's what Franz Joseph inferred when he termed them "environmental systems reactors". I'd think some of the "windows" were just that, but it seems unnecessary to have them everywhere when the view from a window could be precisely simulated on any screen. It's not as if we are comparing a big screen television to a window -- these people should be able to conjure a perfect holographic replica of the outside view.

So... IMO those little "windows" seen in the first season were FJ's environmental systems reactors, and those quarters were not situated along the saucer rim. The curvature of the corridor would strongly suggest a more central location.
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Old April 1 2008, 07:35 PM   #333
Warped9
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Well, I'm guessing that you guys noticed that I left that area of the one compartment I did earlier open... and that was because the windows didn't match anything seen on screen. I had hoped that the windows designed into Kirk's cabin (and partially seen in a few early episodes) would have matched those on the model. Sadly they didn't.

But I was playing around with the idea of what might be in that part of the ship, and this was what I came up with...


Something like an open commons area... specially for crew members who don't have their own office area in their cabins. As for the portholes... I'm not sure what they are, but I'm most likely not including them as standard windows of any type.
Hmm. A most interesting concept.
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Old April 1 2008, 08:09 PM   #334
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
I suppose you could say these aren't windows but holographic screens, to help open up the room a bit and guard against claustrophobia. It's a stretch, but better than trying to match it to the exterior windows and it frees the windows on the saucer perimeter for common areas.
That's what Franz Joseph inferred when he termed them "environmental systems reactors". I'd think some of the "windows" were just that, but it seems unnecessary to have them everywhere when the view from a window could be precisely simulated on any screen. It's not as if we are comparing a big screen television to a window -- these people should be able to conjure a perfect holographic replica of the outside view.

So... IMO those little "windows" seen in the first season were FJ's environmental systems reactors, and those quarters were not situated along the saucer rim. The curvature of the corridor would strongly suggest a more central location.
Perhaps those oddly placed windows on the rim are the holographic sensors that transmit the same image to several of those holo-screens? Which may (but not necessarily) eliminate the need for the split level conjiguration.
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Old April 1 2008, 11:52 PM   #335
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

So it sounds like you guys like the idea that these are holographic windows... sort of like the solution that Warped9 used for his shuttlecraft. I guess that is one way to give everyone a window cabin, and it would solve the type of issue Hoshi
had with the stars going the wrong way (as you could program a view from any part of the ship you wanted.

The question I have is this... given that it fell into almost complete disuse (at least among the characters whose cabins we saw), would that be considered a reflection of it's overall success?

It also solves an issue I was having with the placement of certain cabins... I had planned on putting most of the main characters cabins in ring 1 of deck 5, which is about as far away from where the windows are as you can get. Having Uhura's cabin there solved the problem of her running around in her dressing gown yelling for Spock but finding McCoy instead (from Tholian Web). If there quarters were in ring 1 and sick bay is in ring 0, then she would have been a very short distance away from McCoy who might have just been getting off duty.

Another Window issue that I have been looking at is the observation gallery... while the windows on the inside work out pretty good (in my very early studies), the exterior windows are quite a few feet higher than the related ones on the model. While Holographic windows are nice for cabins, I would assume that in some places real windows exist. Two such places that are strong candidates for real windows are the observation gallery (from The Conscience of the King) and the observation port on what I would guess is deck 2 (from The Mark Of Gideon).

Anyways, I guess since I brought it up, I should share a little of my hangar deck observation gallery stuff...


In this drawing I've left the gallery at a constant width as it travels along the side of the ship. Though I'm not seriously considering staying with that, I figured it was a good outer boundary to start with and then narrow the corridor over the length to see how it works out with hangar space.
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Old April 2 2008, 12:20 AM   #336
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

In the vein of Freud: Sometimes a window is just a window.
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Old April 2 2008, 02:09 PM   #337
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw, regarding your cabin placement. I would suggest you not put the senior command staff (Captain, First Officer and Chief Engineer) all clustered together. The idea being that if something disastrous happens to one part of the ship you lessen the risk of losing all the command staff. Spread them apart from each other.
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Old April 3 2008, 04:49 PM   #338
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well, considering that there are 6 compartments which make up rings 1 and 2 of deck 5, you could have one of each of the 6 senior (in command structure) officers located in each. Of course you run the risk of making those officers seem like den mothers of sorts. But I don't see that type of distribution going against the idea of those rings being Officers Country (where in this case officers would mean senior officers, master chiefs and maybe some chiefs in key positions).


Some other (random) thoughts about ship board life...

Rather than having a swimming pool, it seems like a more efficient use of space to have a number of swim spas to help keep people in shape. Also, if the corridor in ring 4 of deck 6 is continuous all the way around the ship (passing under the impulse engine machinery in the aft area of the primary hull), that would make that corridor perfect for running (or walking) laps (approximately 3 laps to one kilometer).

We know that there is a bowling alley, which serves a dual role as a community hall (for dances and the like), but I would guess that when not being used for shuttlecraft operations, the hangar deck would be another area that could be used for some form of recreation. It is just about the right size for a volleyball court (whose lines could be projected onto the deck from above). I would imagine that it would be used for other social activities much like the hangar deck space of carriers of today.

I was thinking that there might also be two small convenience stores in the primary hull, and a larger multi-purpose store that might take up part of the deck space of two or three decks in the dorsal (connected by a stairway within the store itself). I figure that this would provide more space than your average shopping mall unit. Considering that it is the 23rd century, I would guess that the convenience stores would be mostly automated (with self checkout), and that all three stores could be handled by as few as 4 crew members. I would also guess that these same crew members would also be responsible for general postal service.

To answer the question of why have a multi-purpose store and postal service on the Enterprise?... well, remember that the Enterprise is a frontier vessel, and in many cases the only contact with civilization for outlying posts and colonies. A visit by the Enterprise is most likely a big deal to people in places like that, and those people would have needs above and beyond just standard resupplying and medical checkups.

Like I said, just some thoughts... most likely nothing I'd put in, but things I would guess would be there.
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Old April 3 2008, 05:43 PM   #339
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I wouldn't take the bowling alley reference too seriously, since the bloke was pissed as a fart at the time. He just as well have said there's a derby race in the ballroom. On the other hand, "bowling alley" could be ship board slang for some real facility like the torpedo bay (if the TWoK configuration is any measure) the Hanger Deck or indeed on of the nacelle catwalks.
I just think it's a little TOO much of a luxury to have that specific a leisure facility. More likely you'll have a rec-deck like the one in TMP with holographic games, maybe even holographic bowling.

I like the idea of swim spas rather than a single pool and a few multi purpose gymnasiums would seam to be appropriate.

Not sure I agree with the idea of a general store though. Technically it's still a military ship (broadly speaking) and with the absence of money I imagine most material requirements would go through the Ship's Quartermaster as would any "snail-mail".
I think in TNG we saw something vaguely resembling a store on the E-D but that was basically a huge replicator for making giant bunnies. For "shopping" purposes I imagine it's usually more a case of the crew buying/trading things on shore leave than the other way around.
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Old April 3 2008, 05:49 PM   #340
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post


Not sure I agree with the idea of a general store though. Technically it's still a military ship (broadly speaking) and with the absence of money I imagine most material requirements would go through the Ship's Quartermaster as would any "snail-mail".
I think in TNG we saw something vaguely resembling a store on the E-D but that was basically a huge replicator for making giant bunnies. For "shopping" purposes I imagine it's usually more a case of the crew buying/trading things on shore leave than the other way around.

Military ships, especially those of the USN, have small stores for crew to purchase things such as candy, magazines, soap, etc. They are mini-marts/exchanges. When my father was an officer on a destroyer, I had a chance to see one. So, I don't think it would be out of the ordinary on a Starfleet vessel. Also, TOS did have use of the credit system as noted in "The Trouble with Tribbles" when Uhura took Chekov to do a "little shopping."
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Old April 3 2008, 06:31 PM   #341
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post


Not sure I agree with the idea of a general store though. Technically it's still a military ship (broadly speaking) and with the absence of money I imagine most material requirements would go through the Ship's Quartermaster as would any "snail-mail".
I think in TNG we saw something vaguely resembling a store on the E-D but that was basically a huge replicator for making giant bunnies. For "shopping" purposes I imagine it's usually more a case of the crew buying/trading things on shore leave than the other way around.

Military ships, especially those of the USN, have small stores for crew to purchase things such as candy, magazines, soap, etc. They are mini-marts/exchanges. When my father was an officer on a destroyer, I had a chance to see one. So, I don't think it would be out of the ordinary on a Starfleet vessel. Also, TOS did have use of the credit system as noted in "The Trouble with Tribbles" when Uhura took Chekov to do a "little shopping."
Oh sure, I know in the real world ships and bases have a shop or a Naffi for anyone to get what they need (I happen to live in an Army camp ) I just wonder if the term shop or store would be entirely appropriate to the kind of world GR was going for. As I understand it "Credits" are more of a resource allocation system than a form of currency, so if someone on board wanted say for example new clothes for off duty, an old fashioned time piece for their quarters or their own fencing foil to practice with (other than the standard issue utilities) they'd expend X amount of credits in the QM's department getting whatever it is they want synthesised (presumably with the same machine that can replicate Nazi uniforms and the like.) Food and beverages, of course is already taken care of with the slots, so no real need for a separate snack shop.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but the idea of commerce as we're used to it (with stock, profit margins and the like) aboard the Enterprise just doesn't sit right with me...not that it makes the slightest difference to the deck plans other than what you happen to label the room that contains the non-organic synthesiser.
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Old April 3 2008, 06:40 PM   #342
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

The challenge in depicting (envisioning) a future is how far can you change things while not alienating/confusing your audience.

Our contemporary world would likely have little familiar to someone from 300 to a thousand years in the past. How much can things change over the 300 years? How much will remain familiar?
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Old April 3 2008, 06:51 PM   #343
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post


Not sure I agree with the idea of a general store though. Technically it's still a military ship (broadly speaking) and with the absence of money I imagine most material requirements would go through the Ship's Quartermaster as would any "snail-mail".
I think in TNG we saw something vaguely resembling a store on the E-D but that was basically a huge replicator for making giant bunnies. For "shopping" purposes I imagine it's usually more a case of the crew buying/trading things on shore leave than the other way around.

Military ships, especially those of the USN, have small stores for crew to purchase things such as candy, magazines, soap, etc. They are mini-marts/exchanges. When my father was an officer on a destroyer, I had a chance to see one. So, I don't think it would be out of the ordinary on a Starfleet vessel. Also, TOS did have use of the credit system as noted in "The Trouble with Tribbles" when Uhura took Chekov to do a "little shopping."
Oh sure, I know in the real world ships and bases have a shop or a Naffi for anyone to get what they need (I happen to live in an Army camp ) I just wonder if the term shop or store would be entirely appropriate to the kind of world GR was going for. As I understand it "Credits" are more of a resource allocation system than a form of currency, so if someone on board wanted say for example new clothes for off duty, an old fashioned time piece for their quarters or their own fencing foil to practice with (other than the standard issue utilities) they'd expend X amount of credits in the QM's department getting whatever it is they want synthesised (presumably with the same machine that can replicate Nazi uniforms and the like.) Food and beverages, of course is already taken care of with the slots, so no real need for a separate snack shop.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but the idea of commerce as we're used to it (with stock, profit margins and the like) aboard the Enterprise just doesn't sit right with me...not that it makes the slightest difference to the deck plans other than what you happen to label the room that contains the non-organic synthesiser.
Maybe instead of "stores" there would be, as you suggest, QM (although in Naval parlance it'd be purser) stations on various decks to service the crew. Call them "convenience stations," headed by the ship's QM department.
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Old April 3 2008, 08:08 PM   #344
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

The term store comes straight from the show itself...
Charlie X: "They don't have any in the ship's stores."
Assignment Earth: "Have ship's stores prepare the proper costumes."
And the idea of stores on naval vessels is absolutely normal today, and as I said, as a frontier ship, the Enterprise would be the only access to this type of stuff for outlying posts, which was also made very clear in the show...
Mudd's Women: "You're a long way out in space, gentlemen. You'll need medical help, cargo runs, starship protection."
The Man Trap: "Our mission, routine medical examination... of archaeologist Robert Crater and his wife Nancy."
Charlie X: "Anything we can do for you, Captain? Medical supplies, provisions?...
This must be a space first. A transport ship that doesn't need anything?"
On the subject of the Enterprise being a military ship... while some people only see the military as sort of a live action video game, and see no need for anything beyond point and shoot for anything with a military label associated with it (sadly, our current president here in the US falls into this group), the military has had a long history of being more than just pawns of battles between warring nation states.

Basically, I look on the Enterprise as having a combination role similar to Captain Cook's ships (Discovery and Endeavour) and the US Coast Guard. Her position is policing outlying territories... and (like police) she isn't design to provoke engagements with anyone (the police don't drive around in tanks, though they are able to defend themselves). And she is designed to perform exploration.

While she may be ill suited for starship battles type of gaming mindsets, she will be perfectly suited for the role she played in TOS (which, after all, is what I'm working towards).

So for those who want a blistering battle cruiser ready to fight, fight, FIGHT!, these aren't the plans for you.

Reverend wrote:
For "shopping" purposes I imagine it's usually more a case of the crew buying/trading things on shore leave than the other way around.
But that is the exact opposite of the role she plays... she doesn't travel from port to port to port, she is on the frontier. She is civilization paying call to isolated posts and colonies. She is bringing those things to them, because they would have next to nothing on their own.

Today, on Earth, the navies of the world have no frontiers. Every port of call is pretty much a well settled community, with the exception being some places in the Arctic or Antarctic. That is why you have to put yourself back in the mindset of when much of the world was unknown. And what types of things would navies have provided back then (if they had the means).

Warped9 wrote:
The challenge in depicting (envisioning) a future is how far can you change things while not alienating/confusing your audience.

Our contemporary world would likely have little familiar to someone from 300 to a thousand years in the past. How much can things change over the 300 years? How much will remain familiar?
Actually, that is one reason for looking way back in our past. Would someone of the early 1500s feel totally out of place in the early 1800s? While we have had some major jumps in the last hundred years or so, most jumps like those in history are few and far between. I'm pretty sure that people of the 1960s would be rather disappointed with the world of today (which is far less different from their world than they thought it would be).

The things that would be most likely to change are the things that are least efficient.

But lets look at a real world example... watches.

Back in the late 70s and early 80s, people believe that digital watches were going to replace watches with hands... How many people here use a digital watch? I own four watches, not a single one is digital. I can't recall the last time I even noticed someone waring a digital watch. Sure, digital watches were a great fad, and they do have their place (when people need additional functions), but they didn't displace what has worked for the last few hundred years.

And while we are on the topic of time pieces, what would have been the biggest leap forward in navigation on ships during the sailing era? From our point of view most sailing ships looked alike, but functionally, the addition of accurate time pieces made getting from one place to another very accurate, and ships became more streamlined because they were less likely to miss their intended destination.
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Old April 3 2008, 08:34 PM   #345
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post

Back in the late 70s and early 80s, people believe that digital watches were going to replace watches with hands... How many people here use a digital watch? I own four watches, not a single one is digital. I can't recall the last time I even noticed someone waring a digital watch. Sure, digital watches were a great fad, and they do have their place (when people need additional functions), but they didn't displace what has worked for the last few hundred years.
I haven't been able to wear a digital watch since having read "The Hitchhiker's Guide to he Galaxy."
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