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Old March 8 2008, 12:11 AM   #211
MGagen
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Jefferies' Engineering location on the Phase II drawings actually comes from the legend:

ENGINEERING:
STA. 315 TO STA. 365
DECK LEVEL - 128

HANGAR DECK:
STA. 389 TO STA. 478
DECK LEVEL - 126

SHUTTLE CRAFT STORAGE & MAINT.
STA. 389 TO STA. 442
DECK LEVEL - 138
It shows the level of detail he went to in thinking through his design.

You have a good point about the interior configuration of Engineering being affected by the new pylons. The extreme high-bay on his drawing probably was going to contain something like the vertical doo-dad we saw in TMP. No doubt Main Engineering would have looked totally different from the series had he gone through with production design.

But the high level of agreement between his Phase II and TOS section views has always suggested to me that the later drawing is the Rosetta Stone for interpreting the less detailed TOS drawing that has come down to us. And since Jefferies viewed the ship as a true refit, it's reasonable to assume the new engineering section was an expansion in the old space.

And the old one fits so nicely into the Phase II area...

At any rate, keep up the good work. I am following your progress with interest.

M.
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Old March 8 2008, 12:33 AM   #212
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

The Phase II secondary hull might've also been a whole new unit with a similar, but not exact, interior layout as the original hull.

The only section he explicitly stated would be the same was the saucer, and even that got some alteration, albeit minor by comparison.
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Old March 8 2008, 12:35 AM   #213
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
Not sure if this has been addressed already (I'm far to lazy to read through 10 pages!) but I'm wondering about the two different engineering sets that we've seen and if they were the same room before and after a refit or if they're two (nearly) separate places?
Assuming you've got the scale correct, there seams to be room at either end of the BGCs (Big Giant Conduits) to fit in both facilities. like so.



I know it's not the point of this thread but I can't help speculate the function of the BGCs. Until now I always just assumed they were the bottom end of the warp plasma conduits, sort of like this.

Now I'm wondering if they're actually the deuterium injectors, or maybe the plasma coolant tanks? I'd be interested to know how Rick Sternbach might assign function to some of these features, given his influence on Trek Tech since TNG.
*rubs magic lamp and feeds a really hot cup of tea into the Sternbach Improbability Drive*
Flip those engine rooms around and you come pretty close to the layout I came up with about, ooooh, five years ago.
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Old March 8 2008, 03:36 AM   #214
Rick Sternbach
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
I'd be interested to know how Rick Sternbach might assign function to some of these features, given his influence on Trek Tech since TNG.
*rubs magic lamp and feeds a really hot cup of tea into the Sternbach Improbability Drive*
Well, I'd say it's an interesting way to shoehorn the sets into the Engineering hull and connect up some matter and antimatter supplies, etc. If as some believe the actual boom reaction doesn't happen until the nacelle interiors, then all of the gear in the Engineering hull could be for some type of deuterium pre-heating and antimatter distribution and mag-contained stream alignment. If, on the other hand, the reaction takes place in some channels or chambers under the set floor, then the crisscrossed forced-perspective red PTCs behind the grille on the stage actually delivered hot-hot-hot plasma to the nacelles. Naming the equipment in either case is pretty simple, it's similar to what's in the TNG TM, it's just the placements that might need rearranging.

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Old March 8 2008, 07:14 AM   #215
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

The one thing that tells me that those tubes don't run to the nacelles, or at least makes it problematical, is that dilithium crystal doohickey in the middle of the room (which also tells me that the matter/antimatter boom happens under the set floor and not up in the nacelles).

Simpler to assign some other function to those things. Like, oh, say, a power transfer manifold to send power to the rest of the ship...
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Old March 8 2008, 07:56 AM   #216
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Redfern wrote: View Post
Hmm, now that's an interesting arrangement! If I'm "reading" this diagram correctly, are you suggesting the engineering section we saw in the first season was a facility aft of the "Tubes" with the grille facing towards the bow and the complex seen in the second season onwards is foward of the same "Tubes" with the grille facing towards the stern, both existing at the sme time?..
That's the basic idea, yes.

Shaw wrote: View Post
A little off topic, but I was doing overlays of the image that Reverend posted and an early cross section by aridas sofia, and I'm a little relieved that the general outlines come pretty close to matching. The outlines that I'm using for the ship's exterior are based on the preliminary work I was doing on a study of the 11 foot model. As such, I had been avoiding comparing them with any other plans to keep from contaminating them with any preconceived ideas. So this marks the first (indirect) comparison so far and I'm quite happy that I'm not way out in left field on this.
I wouldn't put too much faith in that graphic of mine, it was done off the cuff several years ago for a similar discussion over on the Flare Forums. Just my view on how the visible components might relate to each other.
The ship itself though should be reasonably accurate though, I think I based it on one of Sinclair's blueprints.

Rick Sternbach wrote: View Post
Well, I'd say it's an interesting way to shoehorn the sets into the Engineering hull and connect up some matter and antimatter supplies, etc. If as some believe the actual boom reaction doesn't happen until the nacelle interiors, then all of the gear in the Engineering hull could be for some type of deuterium pre-heating and antimatter distribution and mag-contained stream alignment. If, on the other hand, the reaction takes place in some channels or chambers under the set floor, then the crisscrossed forced-perspective red PTCs behind the grille on the stage actually delivered hot-hot-hot plasma to the nacelles. Naming the equipment in either case is pretty simple, it's similar to what's in the TNG TM, it's just the placements that might need rearranging.

Rick
www.spacemodelsystems.com

If memory serves the Dilithium is located in engineering, (appeared in the evil antimatter universe matey bloke episode I think) so the reaction really does have to take place in the secondary hull. So that would indeed make the glowy red wotsits the warp plasma conduits/eps manifold type of thing. Roughly equivalent to the Spock killing "mains" room from TWOK, hence all the shielding.
The exact angle of big pipes in relation to the exterior pylons wouldn't really matter since as I preposed in that diagram they could easily change direction the instant they go out of sight to fit in with whatever arrangement you like.
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Old March 8 2008, 08:19 PM   #217
Data Holmes
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
Redfern wrote: View Post
Hmm, now that's an interesting arrangement! If I'm "reading" this diagram correctly, are you suggesting the engineering section we saw in the first season was a facility aft of the "Tubes" with the grille facing towards the bow and the complex seen in the second season onwards is foward of the same "Tubes" with the grille facing towards the stern, both existing at the sme time?..
That's the basic idea, yes.

Shaw wrote: View Post
A little off topic, but I was doing overlays of the image that Reverend posted and an early cross section by aridas sofia, and I'm a little relieved that the general outlines come pretty close to matching. The outlines that I'm using for the ship's exterior are based on the preliminary work I was doing on a study of the 11 foot model. As such, I had been avoiding comparing them with any other plans to keep from contaminating them with any preconceived ideas. So this marks the first (indirect) comparison so far and I'm quite happy that I'm not way out in left field on this.
I wouldn't put too much faith in that graphic of mine, it was done off the cuff several years ago for a similar discussion over on the Flare Forums. Just my view on how the visible components might relate to each other.
The ship itself though should be reasonably accurate though, I think I based it on one of Sinclair's blueprints.

Rick Sternbach wrote: View Post
Well, I'd say it's an interesting way to shoehorn the sets into the Engineering hull and connect up some matter and antimatter supplies, etc. If as some believe the actual boom reaction doesn't happen until the nacelle interiors, then all of the gear in the Engineering hull could be for some type of deuterium pre-heating and antimatter distribution and mag-contained stream alignment. If, on the other hand, the reaction takes place in some channels or chambers under the set floor, then the crisscrossed forced-perspective red PTCs behind the grille on the stage actually delivered hot-hot-hot plasma to the nacelles. Naming the equipment in either case is pretty simple, it's similar to what's in the TNG TM, it's just the placements that might need rearranging.

Rick
www.spacemodelsystems.com

If memory serves the Dilithium is located in engineering, (appeared in the evil antimatter universe matey bloke episode I think) so the reaction really does have to take place in the secondary hull. So that would indeed make the glowy red wotsits the warp plasma conduits/eps manifold type of thing. Roughly equivalent to the Spock killing "mains" room from TWOK, hence all the shielding.
The exact angle of big pipes in relation to the exterior pylons wouldn't really matter since as I preposed in that diagram they could easily change direction the instant they go out of sight to fit in with whatever arrangement you like.
The dilithium is what they use to convert what ever the warp engines up the the pylons make into electrical energy to power the ship... so it's revers what is shown in TWOK, with stuff coming down from the nacelles
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Old March 9 2008, 07:30 AM   #218
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Huh? What show have you been watching?

Here's the sequence of events in a life of a warp engine:

Matter and antimatter meet and go BOOM.

That BOOM is run through a dilithium crystal, turning it into a BOOM!!

That BOOM!! is then sent to the warp coils, so that they can generate the warp field, which makes the ship go really really really really fast.

Any questions?

Last edited by Captain Robert April; March 9 2008 at 07:31 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old March 9 2008, 09:20 AM   #219
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

See, this is the type of thing I was wanting to avoid... I mean I could introduce a modified version of an espresso machine diagram and as long as I kept a straight face there is a good possibility that some people might buy it as engine schematics of a starship.

We (people of the 21st century) are, in the end, talking about technology of the 23rd century. Even with tremendous intelligence, a strong background in physics and mathematics, a pretty clear idea of what we want for an end result, and a lot of creativity... are still stuck in the 21st century and limited by this.

The odds are that even if (and this is a big if) warp drive is around by 2265, it'll look about as much like our ideas as a modern airplanes design looks like Leonardo da Vinci's drawings of a flying machine from the early 16th century.
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Old March 9 2008, 04:17 PM   #220
TIN_MAN
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I think there's a happy medium somewhere? While I can understand why you don't want to get too technical in the 'made up' details, still, it seems even with the sets and models of TOS as we have them, and how they were postulated to work onscreen, there's going to be a need to give some thought as to how it might work and all fit together? After all, this is not only part of the fun of a project like this, but will ultimately determine the basic placements of the elements we do have to work with?

P.S. while we're more or less on the subject of future technology, has anyone checked out Thomas Beardons' website on scalar wave physics and the unified field? For those interested in such things, he has some fascinating ideas on how to engineer 'warped' space and even speculates on how scalar waves can be used to make the phasers, tractor beams and deflector shields of Star Trek, a reality in our life times!

Last edited by TIN_MAN; March 9 2008 at 07:10 PM.
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Old March 11 2008, 11:45 PM   #221
Captain Robert April
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I'm content to let Mr. Shaw get things scaled right, before I start taking his hard work and shuffling it all around and telling everyone why I'm right and everyone else is a clod.
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Old March 12 2008, 07:03 AM   #222
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Here is a very rough animation of the decks I sorta have mapped out (even if only as an outline). I made use of Casimiro's top view and inside nacelle for this, but didn't attempt to work with his secondary hull (or even clean up that part) in this test. I just wanted to see how stuff fit together so far.


I was also playing around with some numbers and realized that the interior volume of the secondary hull is almost the same as the volume of the USS Washington (BB-56) below the weather deck. The reason this is significant (at least to me) is that the Washington had a total complement of 2,339, where as the Enterprise has a complement of 430 living in a much larger volume. Obviously everyone was packed in much tighter on the Washington than the Enterprise, but it does sorta illustrate the fact that 430 isn't that large a crew for a vessel of this size.
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Old March 12 2008, 02:46 PM   #223
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

True, but I think you have to take into account the fact that the Enterprise is *entirely* self-sufficient. The Washington got re-supplied every so often, and they didn't have to worry about carrying their own air. I would imagine that even in the 23rd century, those kinds of provisions would start to significantly cut into your living space.
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Old March 12 2008, 04:06 PM   #224
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

B.J. wrote: View Post
True, but I think you have to take into account the fact that the Enterprise is *entirely* self-sufficient... I would imagine that even in the 23rd century, those kinds of provisions would start to significantly cut into your living space.
But that brings us back to the example of 1930s submarines compared to today's... back in the 1930s the people would have thought that you would have needed massive amounts of space for fuel and air to stay submerged for periods approaching a year at a time. But most of those issues were solved within a span of about 40 years. We are talking about a spacecraft of more than 200 years into the future... are you really saying that we should expect that anything we would consider needed today will be applicable to something that far in the future?

My guess is that if the Enterprise had enough space to support the crew for three months with our technology, it could easily support the same crew for up to 10 years with technology of the future. The Enterprise would be a completely closed system, and literally everything is recycled over and over and over again. The main issue with recycling stuff is to return the life support potential to the materials, which is little more than using energy to return them to a state that humanoids would need to live off of them. And why would we expect that type of equipment to take up more than the space of... say a refrigerator. A couple dozen of these placed around the ship, and use all of the deck spaces on the Enterprise that aren't high enough to be considered standard habitable areas for storage, and you would have far more space than would be needed for it's missions. Which is a good thing as it seems that part of the Enterprise's mission includes postal services for outlying colonies.

What is funny is that most of the estimates I'm making are rather conservative, specially considering our current technology. In all actuality far less space should be required to support that many people that far into the future (if advances of the past are used as a measure).

I've often found that what fans seem to really want is plans for the Enterprise using today's technology (or within the technological horizons of their lifetime) rather than plans of the Enterprise of 2245.

Now, if we were talking about plans of... say, the Discovery from 2001, I would totally agree with you. And some of the cheats that they made (like the incredibly small diameter of the internal drum which advisors to the film explained would be to small to keep the Coriolis forces from causing dizziness) just can't be overcome even today (9 years after the fictional Discovery was launched).

Space for air, food, water and the equipment needed for 100% recycling of them are the least of the technical issues facing the Enterprise... those are actually within reason compared to warp drive and artificial gravity.
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Old March 12 2008, 04:13 PM   #225
B.J.
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

^ See, this is why I like your "black box" approach!
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