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Old January 29 2008, 10:20 PM   #391
Holytomato
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

"Not as long as they're fans doing it for fun, and Paramount isn't using those meshes to replace the existing Enterprise in an official production. Or is the difference between fan projects and real movies too hard to grasp?"



So, Paramount should use these designs instead of Star Trek XI's but Paramount shouldn't?





"And this is supposed to encourage long time fans to see this thing....why?"

Because we longtime fans are not the target audience. The film is designed to bring in New Star Trek Fans. :thumbsup:

Remember why Nemesis and Enterprise flopped?
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Old January 29 2008, 10:20 PM   #392
Captain Robert April
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

EliyahuQeoni said:
Well, the average viewer couldn't tell the difference between the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise and the USS Ranger, which portrayed the former ship in STIV, despite what those familiar with the ships would see as "obvious differences," so I don't really think this will be a problem outside of Trekkiedom.
They also took steps to keep the audience from immediately telling that the ship on screen wasn't the Enterprise (like not lighting the numbers in those night shots, especially when you have the gangway in clear view with "USS ENTERPRISE CVN-65" in big block letters on the side).

This trailer is like staging the same shot, only from the aft, with a spotlight shining right on the "USS RANGER" on the fantail, while Chekov is on the line with Kirk, "And sir, it is the Enterprise!"

Basically, the Groucho Marx argument: "Who ya gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"
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Old January 29 2008, 10:27 PM   #393
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

My point was that someone who is familiar with these ships could tell it wasn't the Big E by the shape of the conning tower, while those without an intimate knowledge of naval vessels just saw an generic aircraft carrier. Those of us who are very familiar with the design of the 1701 are likely to notice every little difference, while the average viewer is going to just see a generic Enterprise like Star Ship.
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Old January 29 2008, 11:26 PM   #394
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Starship Polaris said:
You show most people a picture of the 1701-D and they're as likely to identify it as Kirk's ship as Picard's - possibly a little moreso, given Kirk's greater familiarity - if they recognize it as "that Star Trek ship" at all.
I remember seeing a book about television shows of the 60s and in the section on Star Trek, they had the third-season promo pic of the cast in the transporter and the Enterprise-D side-by-side. To compound the error, the ship was upside down (okay, there is no up in space but relative to what "we" the audience see).
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Old January 29 2008, 11:48 PM   #395
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Captain Robert April said:
And this is supposed to encourage long time fans to see this thing....why?
It's not necessary to encourage "long time fans" to see the movie - almost all of us will.

middyseafort said:
Starship Polaris said:
You show most people a picture of the 1701-D and they're as likely to identify it as Kirk's ship as Picard's - possibly a little moreso, given Kirk's greater familiarity - if they recognize it as "that Star Trek ship" at all.
I remember seeing a book about television shows of the 60s and in the section on Star Trek, they had the third-season promo pic of the cast in the transporter and the Enterprise-D side-by-side. To compound the error, the ship was upside down (okay, there is no up in space but relative to what "we" the audience see).
It's very nearly traditional for the mainstream press to print upside-down pictures of the Enterprise.

This is because it doesn't make enough difference to most people for them to notice.
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Old January 30 2008, 02:02 AM   #396
ancient
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

While I find all this talk of non-fans kinda fascinating, I don’t think that they changed it just because they could ‘get away with it’.

I doubt they sat around the design room going 'Since no one will notice if we make the ship twice as big/change the bridge/etc, we should do it to attract new fans!'

They did it because they didn’t want to use the classic design. They wanted to do it again, but different. Now, many of us will disagree with that, including me, because we spent a long, long time with the Old Girl. How we handle it will vary though. Some of us will shrug off the disappointment and see the movie anyway. Others will decide that after 40 years, some new ship just doesn’t work at all and say adios. The question is: Will the new Enterprise be appealing to new fans? I guess we’ll find out...We haven't see that much of it yet. If it looks all squashed like the ENT-E...
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Old January 30 2008, 02:03 PM   #397
Forbin
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Holytomato said:
"Not as long as they're fans doing it for fun, and Paramount isn't using those meshes to replace the existing Enterprise in an official production. Or is the difference between fan projects and real movies too hard to grasp?"



So, Paramount should use these designs instead of Star Trek XI's but Paramount shouldn't?






How in the world did you interpret it that way?!
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Old January 30 2008, 04:01 PM   #398
Irishman
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Captain Robert April said:
I Grok Spock said:
As long as the design has a saucer, two rocket engines in the back, and is sporting the name "Enterprise" that will be more than sufficient for most non-fans to identify it as the new Star Wars ship.
And this is supposed to encourage long time fans to see this thing....why?
Man, you're just dripping cynicism.

I'll laugh my ass off if the Enterprise isn't even IN the final movie. All this obsession will have been for naught.
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Old January 30 2008, 04:04 PM   #399
Irishman
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

ancient said:
While I find all this talk of non-fans kinda fascinating, I don’t think that they changed it just because they could ‘get away with it’.

I doubt they sat around the design room going 'Since no one will notice if we make the ship twice as big/change the bridge/etc, we should do it to attract new fans!'

They did it because they didn’t want to use the classic design. They wanted to do it again, but different. Now, many of us will disagree with that, including me, because we spent a long, long time with the Old Girl. How we handle it will vary though. Some of us will shrug off the disappointment and see the movie anyway. Others will decide that after 40 years, some new ship just doesn’t work at all and say adios. The question is: Will the new Enterprise be appealing to new fans? I guess we’ll find out...We haven't see that much of it yet. If it looks all squashed like the ENT-E...
Exactly. I think what's driving JJ and crew (admitted fans) in the movie is the same mindset that drives fans to recreate variations on a theme ("new" Trek ships that feature the same basic layout or arrangement of the E Nil, but change minor points here and there - even changingthe scale).

So, how can I findfault with that, as someone who's done the same damn thing? I can't.

None of us can. The difference between them and us is they have the budgetto make it film-worthy and GET it seen by millions of people. So, maybe what's at work here is a little bit of jealousy?
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Old January 30 2008, 04:10 PM   #400
Irishman
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Captain Robert April said:
EliyahuQeoni said:
Well, the average viewer couldn't tell the difference between the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise and the USS Ranger, which portrayed the former ship in STIV, despite what those familiar with the ships would see as "obvious differences," so I don't really think this will be a problem outside of Trekkiedom.
They also took steps to keep the audience from immediately telling that the ship on screen wasn't the Enterprise (like not lighting the numbers in those night shots, especially when you have the gangway in clear view with "USS ENTERPRISE CVN-65" in big block letters on the side).

This trailer is like staging the same shot, only from the aft, with a spotlight shining right on the "USS RANGER" on the fantail, while Chekov is on the line with Kirk, "And sir, it is the Enterprise!"

Basically, the Groucho Marx argument: "Who ya gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"
To me, it's worse when the TOS crew used a commercial model kit to make the USS Constellation for "Doomsday Machine".

Fanon explanations aside, it was cheap, cheesy, and an insult to the fans. It basically said "I don't believe you'll be able to tell the difference between these two models of the hero ship".
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Old January 30 2008, 04:21 PM   #401
USS Mariner
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Irishman said:
Captain Robert April said:
I Grok Spock said:
As long as the design has a saucer, two rocket engines in the back, and is sporting the name "Enterprise" that will be more than sufficient for most non-fans to identify it as the new Star Wars ship.
And this is supposed to encourage long time fans to see this thing....why?
Man, you're just dripping cynicism.

I'll laugh my ass off if the Enterprise isn't even IN the final movie. All this obsession will have been for naught.
I'll laugh my ass off at JJ for having his CGI team waste upwards of $250,000 for this if the damn thing isn't going to appear at all.
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Old January 30 2008, 04:29 PM   #402
Irishman
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Point?
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Old January 30 2008, 04:29 PM   #403
Holytomato
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

"So, maybe what's at work here is a little bit of jealousy?"

I agree! :thumbsup:

"Oh...My...God!!!! They have done better Star Trek since 1966 (prose, comix, audio, live action, animated), than I have since 1966(prose, comix, audio, live action, animated)!!!! "

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Old January 30 2008, 04:33 PM   #404
ST-One
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Mariner Class said:
Irishman said:
Captain Robert April said:
I Grok Spock said:
As long as the design has a saucer, two rocket engines in the back, and is sporting the name "Enterprise" that will be more than sufficient for most non-fans to identify it as the new Star Wars ship.
And this is supposed to encourage long time fans to see this thing....why?
Man, you're just dripping cynicism.

I'll laugh my ass off if the Enterprise isn't even IN the final movie. All this obsession will have been for naught.
I'll laugh my ass off at JJ for having his CGI team waste upwards of $250,000 for this if the damn thing isn't going to appear at all.
So?
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Old January 30 2008, 06:40 PM   #405
USS Mariner
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

ST-One said:
Mariner Class said:
Irishman said:
Captain Robert April said:
I Grok Spock said:
As long as the design has a saucer, two rocket engines in the back, and is sporting the name "Enterprise" that will be more than sufficient for most non-fans to identify it as the new Star Wars ship.
And this is supposed to encourage long time fans to see this thing....why?
Man, you're just dripping cynicism.

I'll laugh my ass off if the Enterprise isn't even IN the final movie. All this obsession will have been for naught.
I'll laugh my ass off at JJ for having his CGI team waste upwards of $250,000 for this if the damn thing isn't going to appear at all.
So?
You'd think that investing a substantial chunk of cash into a model that isn't even going to end up in modified form in the movie would be a "waste of time."
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