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Old January 25 2008, 05:08 PM   #271
ST-One
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Location: Germany - with UHC since the early 1900s
Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vance said:
Again, that is a stupid statement. I'm not allowed to say "I'm not interested in seeing X because of Y?" unless I actually see 'X' even because of 'Y'?

Look, Trek has sucked in the last few years. This is also a re-imagining of a much beloved root of a much-beloved franchise. It's got a high bar to overcome. Neither the trailer nor the preview images have sold me on this movie.

It's stupid to demand my 'loyalty' for a branded product. I don't owe the fandom or the franchise anything. That's not it works. It's a product that Paramount has to sell to me, and they ain't done that yet.
Okay, you are not sold on (or at least gotten interested in) the new movie by the teaser.
You don't want to see the film becaus of certain things you can fix on the information we have now.
Good.
This still will not put you in a position to criticise the film when it comes out.
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Old January 25 2008, 05:18 PM   #272
Vance
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Again, your logic demands that I see the film, even if I don't believe I'll like it, just so I have the 'right' to criticize it.

It doesn't work that way.

It may not occur to you that a radical 'rewrite' of the Enterprise herself, a vessel that I've loved since I was a pre-schooler, is enough of a reason for me to not like the film, or at least enough to have me predisposed against the film.

If I'm not sold on the film by the time it comes out, I'm not going to go see it. It would be pretty stupid of me to do otherwise, wouldn't it?
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Old January 25 2008, 05:25 PM   #273
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

ST-One said:
If you don't see it you will not be in a position to criticise it.
This is, obviously, absolutely true. One can't meaningfully and honestly critique a movie, book or any other work if one hasn't seen or read it - or driven it, or whatever. Same principle applies, after all, to automobile road tests or consumer electronics evaluations or any other critique.

No one would pay a reviewer to write critiques without seeing a movie, because such a review would be dishonest and without value. Doing the same thing for free, as an expression of personal opinion, eliminates the aspect of ripping off an employer but doesn't validate the opinion with respect to its honesty or other positive values.
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Old January 25 2008, 05:48 PM   #274
ancient
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

I have to agree here. See the movie to judge the movie. Pretty simple.
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Old January 25 2008, 05:55 PM   #275
Vance
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Right... because the world works that way.

So, before you can decide if you might like something or not, you HAVE to try it first. You have to commit the time, energy, whatever needed, BEFORE judging whether or not you commit the time, energy, and whatever's needed.

You don't live life this way, it's a completely stupid fanboi demand designed to do nothing at all except say 'well, you can't disagree with me'.

If you lot really walked this walk, your signatures wouldn't be filled with expectant praise of the movie, either. Why? Because you can't be mindlessly positive about the film you haven't seen either.

I've never said I'm not going to see this movie. I've said that at this point it hasn't sold me yet. Don't you guys bullshit me and everyone else with some 'great moral claim' about pre-judgment that you, yourselves, aren't even following.
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Old January 25 2008, 06:11 PM   #276
ST-One
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vance said:
Right... because the world works that way.

So, before you can decide if you might like something or not, you HAVE to try it first. You have to commit the time, energy, whatever needed, BEFORE judging whether or not you commit the time, energy, and whatever's needed.

You don't live life this way, it's a completely stupid fanboi demand designed to do nothing at all except say 'well, you can't disagree with me'.

If you lot really walked this walk, your signatures wouldn't be filled with expectant praise of the movie, either. Why? Because you can't be mindlessly positive about the film you haven't seen either.

I've never said I'm not going to see this movie. I've said that at this point it hasn't sold me yet. Don't you guys bullshit me and everyone else with some 'great moral claim' about pre-judgment that you, yourselves, aren't even following.
The only people here pre-judging are those that doom this film already and are saying that it won't be good because of the redesign of the Enterprise.
The rest will reseve judgment until they have actually seen the film to know what it is actually about.
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Old January 25 2008, 06:16 PM   #277
Vance
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

And you're lying, ST-One, particularly if you're including me on that list. And your 'reserve judgment' is also a lie, because you - personally - have shown how much you love this upcoming film.

The fact is that this thread exists to critique the view of the Enterprise as shown in the teaser. The fact that you feel personally offended that some fans are concerned about the direction of the film as a whole based on the obvious 're-deux' of old girl speaks volumes.

So quit the bullshit and the intellectual dishonesty. If people can blow sunshine around based on what little information is out there, people are just as valid in blowing stormclouds as well.
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Old January 25 2008, 06:20 PM   #278
largo
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

of course you can't critique the film, it doesn't exist yet.

but the intent of this thread is to critique the enterprise as shown in the teaser. everyone's seen that, and it ALONE is certainly a valid basis for interest for or against the rest of the movie. the enterprise is a major character, whether its your personal focus or not. i'm fairly certain that, had rudy giuliani been cast as a young captain kirk, the negative response would be universal, "haven't seen it yet" be damned.

it's not "because of this ONE THING, everything else about the movie will suck", it is "because of this ONE THING, the rest of the movie doesn't matter and the experience as a whole will suck".

for myself, looking at how incredibly wide this page has been pushed by a few images, this is familiar territory, even if i don't share the sentiment wrt the enterprise.
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Old January 25 2008, 07:08 PM   #279
Vektor
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vance said:
This is one of the most annoying and stupid, but also most common, fanboisms that I've ever seen. You're demanding that I see the movie before I judge whether or not I should see the movie?
You know, this is a very important consideration because if the movie really does suck, everyone who watches it could suffer permanent blindness, chronic constipation, severe heartburn, irreversible mental implosion and spontaneous combustion. Shoot, the world as we know it might end! By all means, we absolutely must form a definitive opinion about the movie before seeing it because there is so much at stake!

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to decide whether or not I should read the rest of this thread or stop right here because the consequences… the consequences…
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Old January 25 2008, 07:14 PM   #280
ST-One
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vance said:
And you're lying, ST-One, particularly if you're including me on that list.
Not a lie - just an observation.

Vance said:
And your 'reserve judgment' is also a lie, because you - personally - have shown how much you love this upcoming film.
Where would I have shown this 'love' for the film?
How can I possibly love this film if it not even finished and next to nothing is known about the story?

What I like is the redesign of the Enterprise - very modern and still very true to the original (at least judging from what was shown of her).

You, on the other hand, judge the movie as a whole already just by on (albeit very important) design element, the Enterprise.
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Old January 25 2008, 07:14 PM   #281
Vance
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vektor, obviously it isn't all that important (nothing on this site really is). But it is a silly demand to make that I watch the movie before, you know, deciding if I want to watch the movie. I'm sure Paramount would love that idea, mind you...

After all, I might enjoy bitching on this thread with you lot more than spending two hours watching this new movie. Have you thought of that?
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Old January 25 2008, 07:21 PM   #282
ST-One
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vance said:
Vektor, obviously it isn't all that important (nothing on this site really is). But it is a silly demand to make that I watch the movie before, you know, deciding if I want to watch the movie. I'm sure Paramount would love that idea, mind you...

After all, I might enjoy bitching on this thread with you lot more than spending two hours watching this new movie. Have you thought of that?
No one is demanding that you watch the movie (when it is out).

All I was saying is that you will be in no position to criticise that film when you haven't seen it. But you will of course have had your reasons why you didn't want to see the film - you didn't like the production design, or some of the actors, or the very fact of the re-casting; all valid reasons - just no grounds for a critique of the movie as a whole.
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Old January 25 2008, 07:22 PM   #283
ST-One
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vektor said:
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to decide whether or not I should read the rest of this thread or stop right here because the consequences… the consequences…
You... you better go back modelling!
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Old January 25 2008, 07:33 PM   #284
Sean_McCormick
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

By the time, the movie hits the cinemas there will be ample material out (trailers, tv-reports, articles, toys) to form a judgement on liking or not liking it, but just from the first teaser...

Hey, judged from the first teaser, Star Wars - The Phantom Menace was a great movie,
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Old January 25 2008, 07:37 PM   #285
ThomastheCat
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Re: The OFFICIAL new Enterprise - Let the critiques begin!

Vektor said:
You know, this is a very important consideration because if the movie really does suck, everyone who watches it could suffer permanent blindness, chronic constipation, severe heartburn, irreversible mental implosion and spontaneous combustion. Shoot, the world as we know it might end! By all means, we absolutely must form a definitive opinion about the movie before seeing it because there is so much at stake!
Quoted for Epic Win...

We're not talking about reading War and Peace or learning to play Jazz Flute. $9 and two hours of your time to form an opinion.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to keep super-passionate verdicts about the new E to oneself until we've at least seen the whole thing after it has finished being built.

All that said, I wish they had gone down the road Vektor did with his design. I am still looking forward to getting a better idea of what she looks like after she's been put together, though.
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