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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 19 2008, 01:46 AM   #316
Sharr Khan
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Re: Enterprise Pic

Construction of wooden ocean going vessels in the 1700's is much different that construction of modern ocean going vessels. The basic materials used (wood v. metal) mean vastly different methods are used. The similarities between the two methods owe more to the overall design commonalities than anything else. Point in case: welding; it's used today, but it wasn't 240 years ago.
But its not the basic method remains the same, be it wood or whatever from the moment a keel is laid out to its being skinned. Sure in a metal ship you use bolts instead or nails and don't plug it with whale oil based material you use a modern equivalent but its not all that different in form or function from what was used to close the gapes in the 18th Century sailing vessel.

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Old January 19 2008, 01:47 AM   #317
Holytomato
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Re: Enterprise Pic

He's welding!!!!

Anyone remember the nutrieno welder from TMP?
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Old January 19 2008, 01:53 AM   #318
FlyingTigress
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Re: Enterprise Pic

Regal Cinemas multi in Lakewood, WA... I believe that it is the DLP system. Same complex that I saw "The Menagerie" at when it was released.

Don't know which... 1.2 or 2.
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Old January 19 2008, 02:04 AM   #319
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Enterprise Pic

JBElliott said:It's true that methods aren't completely discarded. But how many methods and materials used to build castles in the middle ages are used to build modern sky scrapers? Not many.
Not true. The same basic principles apply. You see structures in even the most modern skyscraper that are, in every meaningful mechanical way, "keystones"... which have been used in arch construction for THOUSANDS of years.

Skyscrapers are built as compression structures. The basic principles of how much incompressible "footing" is required for how much mass carried has remained totally unchanged since the middle ages, and is still done in very much the same way... ie, it's based upon an experience base, at least as much if not moreso than upon any hard-scientific analysis.

Towers were built in the middle ages. Construction today isn't nearly as far advanced from that as you may think. We've just refined the processes (considerably, mind you!)
The same would be true for building space craft. Espcially if one extrapolates from other things about space craft in today's world and the space craft of TOS era. For instance the means of propulsion is completely different.
It's true that there's an FTL "field drive" system on the ship... aka "warp drive." But sublight drive is defined using a standard scientific term... "impulse"... that applies to conventional rockets every bit as much as any esoteric ion system or so forth. It accelerates a bit of mass out of a nozzle at a high velocity, and the "equal and opposite reaction" gives the ship an acceleration in the opposite direction. Fundamental science... and not something that they've tossed out in Star Trek.

They've got a few new toys... things we can only dream about... but it's still in the same general universe we live in, and we can imagine our own world becoming like theirs (if we're LUCKY).
Why then would one expect the means of construction not also to be completely different?
This is an argument that, you may notice, all the guys who have backgrounds in science and technology are rejecting... but those who are mainly in it for the "entertainment" but don't really get into the science seem to like.

Is there anyone who has a real grounding in materials science, construction technologies, physics, chemistry, etc, who thinks that we're likely to stop using the stuff we KNOW to be reality and come up with something "totally new?"

The more you understand what we DO know (and thus, how little we really know about even the stuff we currently use), the more you understand that we have a loooonnnnng way to go just to get a grip on what we're supposely "expert" with today.

The changes that are likely to occur are vast... but they will be REFINEMENT of our ability to manipulate and control the universe we already live in. They won't... at least not for a VERY long time... involve inventing our own altered reality.
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Old January 19 2008, 02:48 AM   #320
ThunderAeroI
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Re: Enterprise Pic

I do not have much of a problem with the welding or the earth construction, let me explain.

The earth construction and sub launch is not a problem because they have warp drive. Who I am to second guess a culture like that. If they find it more economical to build on the planet and then launch so be it. Same goes for 'welding', thet have warp drive, how can we second guess that.

Maybe they have the orbit teather in star trek and they just pull the loads up via the rope. Who cares.

Now as for the micro-welding, we have no idea. A custom paint shop will paint your car such that the paint forms one solid molucule of paint around the entire care. The same priniple exisits for metal. You fuse the metal on the sub atomic scale such that there really is no 'joint'.

Over all I see no problems... i may be blinded by darkness and giggityness though.
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Old January 19 2008, 03:15 AM   #321
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Re: Enterprise Pic

Neat stuff.

I do agree with the other folks: that scene SCREAMS Goldsmith. Ashame he didn't live long enough to score the movie.
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Old January 19 2008, 03:18 AM   #322
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Re: Enterprise Pic

As much as I loved Goldsmith - and I do - he was really running out of steam near the end. His Nemesis score is a full on rehash of TMP with one or two (uninspired) new compositions. I'm glad we have someone like Giacchino on this project musically.

Does anyone know if he was involved with the trailer?
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Old January 19 2008, 03:46 AM   #323
Arlo
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Re: Enterprise Pic

JBElliott said:
I wouldn't bother fastening two pieces of metal together at all. I'd just create the metal in a single piece in the desired shape and size. This could be done via transporter as I mentioned previous which beams the piece into existence en mass free of any defects.
I'm reminded of a quote from the TNG Tech Manual (paraphrasing): "If a starship could be created with the transporter, they wouldn't need it to begin with..."
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Old January 19 2008, 03:46 AM   #324
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Re: Enterprise Pic

I think a lot of you need to quit tugging - it's a film that's intended to get a mass audience in - so surely they are going to use things that will get people in - someone welding "wondering what he's welding..." and so on...

just tug into your socks when it comes out and cry "raped my childhood!" and let's leave you in the basements...
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Old January 19 2008, 03:52 AM   #325
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Re: Enterprise Pic

Kegek said:
Does anyone know if he was involved with the trailer?
You mean Giacchino? I believe so. He was mentioned in the credits (on the trailer).
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Old January 19 2008, 03:54 AM   #326
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Re: Enterprise Pic

JacksonArcher said:
Kegek said:
Does anyone know if he was involved with the trailer?
You mean Giacchino? I believe so. He was mentioned in the credits (on the trailer).
Yes I do. I noted the original (if minimal) use of music near the start - largely precussion - and I was wondering if that was his work.
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Old January 19 2008, 03:59 AM   #327
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Re: Enterprise Pic

Kegek said:
JacksonArcher said:
Kegek said:
Does anyone know if he was involved with the trailer?
You mean Giacchino? I believe so. He was mentioned in the credits (on the trailer).
Yes I do. I noted the original (if minimal) use of music near the start - largely precussion - and I was wondering if that was his work.
I don't know for sure. I know he did the trailer music for Mission: Impossible III that eventually found itself on the film's album so it's entirely plausible.
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Old January 19 2008, 04:41 AM   #328
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Enterprise Pic

Starship Polaris said:You use microscopic machines to form molecular bonds turning the two pieces of metal into a single piece.
Dennis, you just used terms that have real meaning in a way that demonstrates you're not sufficiently conversant in what they actually mean.

"Molecular bonds" are also known, more commonly, as covalent bonds. This is the way that chemical compounds are created... two or more atoms of materials share an electron orbit, and the associated electron... ie, they share a "valence level"... and that creates a very strong bond between these two atoms. Molecules that are linear in nature can bend... ones that have a structure (hexagonal planar structures are reasonably common, for instance) form much more rigid materials.

Ionic bonds, on the other hand, involve no physical electron sharing. Rather, an electron is TRANSFERRED from a low-electron-affinity atom to a high-affinity one. The charged atoms (or "ions") are then drawn together by their opposing charges. This is, for example how salt is formed... and the lack of any unbound electrons is why these materials, in pure form and without crystalline flaws and crystal boundaries throughout, tend to be very hard and very transparent. No loose electrons to bounce photons back...

Metallic bonds involve the sharing of electrons. That is what makes them METALS. That's why the metals in the periodic table all fall largely together. They have a lot of electrons that are loosely held, and some of them "float away" when you have a lot of metal atoms together.

REACT a metal with something else... say, iron with oxygen... you no longer have a metal. AT ALL. You have (in the case I just gave)... ferrous oxide, aka RUST. It no longer has any of the characteristics that make it a metal. Further, the rust MOLECULES (there is no such thing as a "metal molecule") are held together by very light bonds... it's remarkably fragile.

The only way to get a strong bond out of that sort of material is to use IONIC bonds. For instance... sodium is a metal. Sodium chloride (table salt) is not a metal, it's what's referred to as a salt (there are MANY salts, by the way). But it's held together because the sodium transfers electrons to the chlorine, and the charges between the two ions hold them together.

My point? THERE ARE NO MOLECULAR BONDS... EVER... IN METALS. There cannot be. To create such a bond causes it to cease to BE a metal. It becomes something else... a salt.

Theoretically, if you put two perfectly smooth, planar piece of the same metal against each other, they would literally become a single piece of metal. The "electron sea" in each part would merge with that in the other part.

Unfortunately, there are no pure monocrystaline, perfectly clean and perfectly planar surfaces in the universe, as far as we know. So you can't REALLY check that. But if there WERE, we could "weld" without any tools, without any heat, without any pressure.

Which WOULD be pretty damned impressive as a construction technique.
This is why there are no joints or specular variations on the TOS Enterprise - the entire hull is manufactured to microscopically precise tolerances by nanonic devices programmed to do so. It's created that in a few large pieces in "vats" of the raw material (perhaps not the finaly alloy, but in fact the basic elements of it are themselves assembled into the final material by the microbots) - whether on Earth or in orbit is irrelevant - and then fused into a single unbroken shell by more nanomachines in orbital space.
That's all purely speculative. It's just as valid to say "the TOS enterprise had variations, we just couldn't see them on 1966 TV sets), or "the TOS Enterprise had a protective coating applied over the hull."

Nanomachines might "fuse" things together... but all you'd really be talking about would be little robots performing welding. And in order to do so, they'd need to be in between the parts being welded, and would have to weld in material to fill in the gaps as they "backed out."

This would actually be a lot LESS acceptable than a resistance weld or a "stir weld" using conventional technologies. Gap-filling welds result in not one, but TWO boundaries... and two possible regions for flaws to creap in. And flaws ALWAYS creep in... it's entropy at work.
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Old January 19 2008, 05:05 AM   #329
Trekster
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Re: Enterprise Pic

Its the same old USS Enterprise......but on Steroids!!!! Old Sly Stalone would be proud!!

Seriously, It's not as bad as I thought it would be. Its the same design but beefier, bigger and has more fine detail.
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Old January 19 2008, 05:39 AM   #330
cobalt1365
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Re: Enterprise Pic

I was kinda iffy on going to see Cloverfield, but then I saw this pic, and may I say, that I'm on my way out the door to go see it as I write this. This pic looks amazOng!!!
one beef, though... the "USS Enterprise" on the hull should be convex from our perspective, not concave. I dunno if it's already been mentioned or not, it's just that I noticed.

At any rate, this looks FANTASTAMAZING and is now my laptop wallpaper.
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