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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 6 2008, 08:14 AM   #91
Eminence
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Jonesy said:
arwag said:
what would have improved it for you?

Sticking to the premise - rigidly.

Every other good/worthy/valid point made in this thread - at least to me - branches out directly from this.

The decision to break from the premise was the studio's decision (as Michael Piller said in an interview) and not the production team's.


There was such a huge amount of conflict and drama and excitement to mine from a premise as the one that Voyager launched with.

How exactly was the premise abandoned? As far as I remember, the show was about a Starfleet crew trying to make their way back home from the DQ in the beginning of the series, all the way to the end.
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Old January 6 2008, 08:37 AM   #92
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

To be fair, Moore is obviously pissed; it's a long interview and he fires in several directions here.

I don't really think he was stressing a problem in conceivability, just that he believes those matters should be at the core of the series, shaping it from start to finish.
Anything else, to him, is just squandering potential.

Moore wants to fully exploit that premise, he wants it all figured out and he wants development while Braga wants something more TNG, more static and he saves those supply issues for use as plot devices from time to time at most, rather than it being a constant challenge to the crew.

Braga would say (like you) the supply issues would be resolved by year two anyway, while Moore maybe would look for a way to keep this a lasting problem or even make them lose their gel-packs or some other important thing even later in the series.

All in all, I always was cool with Voyager, mainly because I got my beloved DS9 and now it was those peoples' turn that wanted something different. It wasn't what Moore or Me or some other people wanted, but seeing how many fans it still has, it seems it delivered in some way.

But again, conceivability was not Moore's main issue. He knows about what the 24th century tech can do, but it's also true there would have been a way to make supply issues a big part of the series- but that wasn't what B&B wanted.

But I must say if only half of what Moore tells about the apathy and negativity he noticed among the staff is actually true, that's really sad.
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Old January 6 2008, 08:48 AM   #93
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

TeutonicNights said:

Of course there are 1000 trexplanations for anything, and Ron Moore knows that very well (and says so in the interview). But he's kinda right, having adventures in the holodeck and having to conserve replicator power/eat weird stuff in the galley doesn't really fit together.

Not sure if this is mentioned in the interview (that may be the explanation you refer to), but it was established very early that the holodeck had independent, incompatible power suppy to the rest of the ship. Then promptly contradicted a few episodes later when power problems caused the holodeck to shut down...
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Old January 6 2008, 12:47 PM   #94
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

The premise would be that the ship had to survive. Note SURVIVE, not go on holo deck adventures when they have replicator rations.

Voyager as a deep space exploration ship is ok but 70000 light years is more than "deep space" it's way away from the federation, that was the whole premise of the show.

Seriously Voyager could might aswell have been about the Enterprise C
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Old January 6 2008, 01:22 PM   #95
Guy Gardener
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

donners22 said:
TeutonicNights said:

Of course there are 1000 trexplanations for anything, and Ron Moore knows that very well (and says so in the interview). But he's kinda right, having adventures in the holodeck and having to conserve replicator power/eat weird stuff in the galley doesn't really fit together.

Not sure if this is mentioned in the interview (that may be the explanation you refer to), but it was established very early that the holodeck had independent, incompatible power suppy to the rest of the ship. Then promptly contradicted a few episodes later when power problems caused the holodeck to shut down...
Yes, they said that in the beginning, and then contradicted it later on to my guffaw.

The technology and how they used it changed to meet the needs of their environment.
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Old January 6 2008, 04:04 PM   #96
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

And quit blaming B&B for everything, most of these big decisions were made for them by UPN. Heck, Braga wanted to get rid of the replicators for good and have "Year of Hell" last for a whole year.
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Old January 6 2008, 04:07 PM   #97
Jonesy
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Eminence said:
Jonesy said:
arwag said:
what would have improved it for you?

Sticking to the premise - rigidly.

Every other good/worthy/valid point made in this thread - at least to me - branches out directly from this.

The decision to break from the premise was the studio's decision (as Michael Piller said in an interview) and not the production team's.


There was such a huge amount of conflict and drama and excitement to mine from a premise as the one that Voyager launched with.

How exactly was the premise abandoned? As far as I remember, the show was about a Starfleet crew trying to make their way back home from the DQ in the beginning of the series, all the way to the end.
This is an entire can of worms that has already kind of been opened to one degree or another in this thread. The very short version is that the network wanted the Maquis and Starfleet crew to be lovey-dovey as quickly as possible (which by my estimation was pretty much the episode following the pilot) thereby removing any of the very real conflict that would arise by two crews trying to co-exist on one ship.
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Old January 13 2008, 06:58 AM   #98
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

exodus said:
Eminence said:
^^Well I meant more for bartering for supplies etc, but you're right; they could make many of the repairs they needed. People forget that this is a FEDERATION ship, a STAR TREK show, and one of the premises of Star Trek is that humanity has evolved by such leaps and bounds technologically that many material concerns have been overcome or solved. It ain't like they need to mine for oil to run their car; the Federation had developed renewable energy technology. So, whatever adjustments they might have had to make now that they were away from the Federation, would still have to be coupled with the fact they were still a Federation vessel with all of the Federation's technology at their disposal.
Exactly.

Just like there was never going to be any major conflict between the Maquis crew & the Starfleet one. They're both citizens of the Federation. We don't fight our own, that was all explained in DS9's "The Maquis pt.1&2". The fight was with the Cardassians because the Central Government was supplying weapons to both sides. It started in DS9's Circle Trilogy .

The Cardassian Central Command was secretly supplying the Bajorians living the the Demiliterized Zone with weapons. They did it to give them an excuse to supply Cardassian citizens with weapons to fight and harrass the Federation citizens living there too. When the Federation citizens(Maquis) fought back, it finally gave Cardassia a reason to eliminate those people living on their side of the Zone. The Cardies were always the enemy of the Maquis not the Federation.
This is how I see it: you can justify the lack of conflict and the lack of any real desperation on Voyager any way you like, but at the end of the day, the question has to be: if there is no conflict amongst the crew, if there is no desperation in Voyager's situation, then what, exactly, is it that distinguishes VOY from every other Star Trek series? And the answer, I think, is "not much."

To amplify: What is the point of combining Maquis and Starfleet crews if (except, of course, for the annual "Maquis episode") everybody gets along just fine from the get-go? Might as well make it an all-Starfleet crew in that case. And what is the point of stranding Voyager away from its chain of command and its supply lines if a) being away from the chain of command isn't going to change the way the ship is run (they're still true-blue Starfleet) and b) the crew is not going to have to find any alternate sources of supplies? Might as well leave them in the Alpha Quadrant.

What is the point of introducing differences in the premise if they're not going to have any effect in the execution? Again, I say: not much. Everything that could and should have made VOY daring and unique was frittered away in favor of everything that made it safe and familiar -- and that's a real shame.
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Old January 13 2008, 05:16 PM   #99
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Personally I just find the concept of the "Maquis" stupid to begin with, in that they're supposed to be there to create such drama...
VOY begins in about mid 2371... the Maquis only formed in late 2370, so they hadn't even been around for a single year anyway. And before that all these supposed "badasses" in the Maquis were all just nice, happy normal Federation citizens, being as patriotic as anyone to the UFP.
So by about mid-Season 2 they'd all been aboard Voyager longer than they had been in the Maquis anyway!

They're called terrorists, but its hardy like they're bloody Al-Queda or whatever. Christ, most people in the Maquis seemingly used to be in Starfleet anyway, so it's not like coming aboard Voyager would be that much of a change for them.

If you wanted some real drama, instead of the crew being made up of Starfleet-Maquis (which basically translates as Starfleet-Starfleet, or at the least Starfleet-Federation civilians) it should have been something like Starfleet-Cardassians, or Starfleet-Roumulans
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Old January 13 2008, 05:42 PM   #100
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Hey, look ... Voyager came from the minds of UPN.
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Old January 13 2008, 06:53 PM   #101
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Only UPN would name their ship/show after a half mad engine of destruction which nearly destroyed the planet Earth after fragging a couple ships and a star base.
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Old January 13 2008, 08:33 PM   #102
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Reduce it to 4 or 5 seasons. 7 just seemed to drag out the inevitable "we're gonna try to get home but it won't be 'this' episode".

Reduce the cast to about 5 or 6 regulars. Having 9 requires the writers to create stories just to put the characters in to give the actors something to do (like Neelix after 'Fair Trade'). Either that or have the atrition rate of regulars very high.

All the major points have been addressed, like continuity, abundance of resources, etc.

I would like to have made the Kazon more badass, and not just a Klingon clone. Also, maybe have Janeway piss off a Kazon commander in the pilot, and he vows to hunt Voyager down, thus giving Voyager an ongoing enemy, similar to the Cylons chasing Galactica.

Character-wise I would've made Janeway younger, perhaps even the first officer of Voyager and the Caretaker kills the captain instead. That way Janeway would be thrust into the role and we'd see an up-and-coming captain instead of the experienced captains we always see (although Sisko started as a Commander, didn't he?). She would also have to deal with Chakotay a lot more, as he would have a lot more experience of commanding a ship.

I would ditch Tuvok, Kim & Kes, and make Neelix more of a Galen-type character (from Crusade).

Voyager would be more of a warship, like the Defiant, perhaps a failed Defiant-prototype. She would have a squadron of fighters assigned to her, which would make them very handy to have in the Delta Quadrant.

Season one would end with Chakotay conducting a mutiny, forcing Janeway into the airlock, ready to blow her into space.

Season two would end with Voyager forced to land on a planet and the crew forced to make a colony for themselves as they can't get back up.

Season three would end in Borg space, with Voyager under a Borg tractor beam and Janeway apparently assimilated.

Etc etc.
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Old January 13 2008, 10:48 PM   #103
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

I saw the pilot to the fan SERIES Odyssey last night(the sequel to 7 years of Hidden frontier.). Well, I started it at 4 am, so I slept through some of the meat in the middle because my will tapped out, but I got the jist, that the guys writing it were seriously pissed at Voyager and they were redoing Caretaker.

Half the crew dead, third officer punk kid in charge separated from his husband by a whole galaxy, Romulan adviser running around in plain site suggesting pure evil, trapped in Andromeda with the story tapping in the pilot to the Kelvins from TOS who ran from Andromeda, meaning that they've actually googled their prediciment unlike some people.

What ferengi? There's ferengi in the Delta quadrant? Wow. How did that happen?

YOH, Voyager needed more main actors not less. Familiar faces. Not so much that everyone gets a whole issue focussed on them, but I did wait 5 years unfulfilled for the episode of Ally McBeal which would be all about Vonda Shepard (The singer in the bar.) and we found out what she really thought about those drunk lawyers.
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Old January 13 2008, 11:30 PM   #104
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Guy Gardener said:
Who is more caustic and depressing, Voyager's Doctor or Gregory House? Who was instantly redeemed and mellowed out becoming beloved by all those around him after a 1/4 season, and who is a bigger jerk after 4 years?

It's morally bankrupt to instantly redeem characters for no reason practically between scenes and between episodes.

Voyager would have been better if the Doctor had gotten worse after parallax instead of sublimenting itself into a non event.
Indeed, you allow him to grow as a 'person' and he grows into a lecherous nasty asshole... that would have been more fun to see develop.

oh and his holo-novel should have been a porno featuring the crew, with all the fallout that would have generated.
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Old January 13 2008, 11:54 PM   #105
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

I think people are getting too hung up on the technobabble bits of what Moore is saying - it's all made-up, you could come up with 101 babble reasons why the replicators don't work - the real point of what he is saying is that the show never came across as truthful to the audience. For example -

"Do the characters really believe they are not getting home for seventy years? They don’t act like it. They all believe they are getting home in a couple of hours."
This is so true - it was all so cold and professional all the time - it's just unrealistic, people just don't act like!

and comments like this begger belief

On VOYAGER, there are characters they have given up on. They will just say that to you, flat out. I started asking questions about B’Elanna, who she is. I was saying, ‘I’m having a little trouble watching episodes and getting a handle on her, and what she is about.’ The response was, ‘We don’t have an idea. The past doesn’t matter. Just do whatever you want.’ What are you talking about? How can you give up on your own show? How do you give up on your characters? There is such a cynicism about the show within the people that do the show.
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