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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 18 2008, 03:58 AM   #271
Kegek
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

That's very true. And Berman didn't want yet another show ontop of DS9. But UPN gave him ultimatum: They'd either make the Star Trek show with him, then without him.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:12 AM   #272
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Anwar said:
UPN shouldn't have twisted their arms into doing consecutive series like that. They should've waited until DS9 was done, then maybe wait a year or two before doing VOY, and then waited until VOY was done for a few years before ENT.

Sorry to say, but even early 90s Trek wasn't popular enough to have two shows practically on at the same time (DS9 was towards the end of TNG).
Diminishing returns are still returns.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:18 AM   #273
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Maybe so, but at least we'd have gotten something of slightly higher quality, even if it didn't make a ton of cash.
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Old January 18 2008, 02:11 PM   #274
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Straczynski faced the same problem of network interference when he was producing Crusade for TNT. After initial appeasement he grew weary of their meddling and simply refused to take their 'direction' on board. He stuck to his guns and effectively forced TNT to cancel the show.
So it's all down to him that the series sucked balls? I'd perfer to blame the suits!
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Old January 18 2008, 02:58 PM   #275
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Kegek said:
That's very true. And Berman didn't want yet another show ontop of DS9. But UPN gave him ultimatum: They'd either make the Star Trek show with him, then without him.

On the one hand I think people have given Berman a pass regarding creative mediocrity. Yes UPN may have intervened but Berman had a big hand in ensuring that Trek never took ANY chaqnces. I recall a story Ron Moore told regarding a DS9 story involving Nog losing a leg in battle. He stated that Berman had a fit that no only would he lose a leg in battle but that they wanted to explore the mental impact of such a loss on the character by not having it immediately replaced. Moore thought the argument was idiotic if only because Nog would get his leg back eventually anyway (this is Star Trek after all).


On the other hand, I have to say that I am glad that UPN forced them to make Voyager. Voyager got all of the piss poor writing and plotting while DS9 was largely given creative freedom because so few people were paying attention. Voyager's larger profile meant that it could suck up all the crap leaving DS9 free to take some real chances. For that Voyager deserves SOME praise. Oddly enought, the opposite seemed to happen to Voyager when focus shifted to Enterprise. Voyager seemed to get worse without constant attention in its last few years.
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Old January 18 2008, 03:12 PM   #276
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
^^ Straczynski faced the same problem of network interference when he was producing Crusade for TNT. After initial appeasement he grew weary of their meddling and simply refused to take their 'direction' on board. He stuck to his guns and effectively forced TNT to cancel the show. He didn't need to leave or violate his contract with them, and as such gained more kudos from B5 fandom for not allowing the direction of the show be dictated by network suits. It also hasn't prevented him from finding more work in both the television and comicbook fields.

Why couldn't Berman/Braga do the same? They didn't need to leave, just refuse to be dictated to and then force them to either replace you, or cancel the show. Either way, you're free from your contract without the threat of legal action.

And let's face it, worst case scenario, they're blackballed by UPN. Whoopy fcuking doo......That would be a real career killer.....Not.

Moore left, and after having a creative hand in Roswell and Carnivale, runs nuBSG. Echevarria and Behr left and came up with The 4400. Piller left and gave us The Dead Zone. There's life after Star Trek and the above have been able to carve their niche. Perhaps Berman/Braga realised that they simply weren't as creative as them and therefore couldn't cut the apron strings to free themselves from Star Trek. Lord knows, if Threshold is anything to go by, that's a fairly safe bet....
Rick Berman has a morgage to pay and a family to support.

I'm sorry but what type of world do some of you people live in that you think anybody can just up and leave a job as if they have no responsabilities to anyone? B&B weren't sitting around all day on their asses eating bon-bons. They have responsabilities to themselves and their families. They have to put food on the table, keep a roof over their heads and the power turned on. What they do is still a job, just like and no different than any other. What they do is work, not fun.
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Old January 18 2008, 03:27 PM   #277
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?
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Old January 18 2008, 03:35 PM   #278
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?
Are you married with a morgage to pay?

Do you really honestly beileve that there is no competition within the job market and that people can leave jobs and be guaranteed one almost instantly?
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Old January 18 2008, 03:43 PM   #279
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

exodus said:
Angel4576 said:
Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?
Are you married with a morgage to pay?

Do you really honestly beileve that there is no competition within the job market and that people can leave jobs and be guaranteed one almost instantly?
Yes, and yes.

Piller, Behr, Echevarria, Moore, all managed to move seamlessly from Trek to other projects. How come Berman and Braga couldn't?

They knew Voyager was coming to an end, they had plenty of time.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:08 PM   #280
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
exodus said:
Angel4576 said:
Hmm, don't know about that. If I don't like my job, and there's little I can change about that situation, I'd find another one. The situation that's been described here around Berman and Braga's working environment, certainly sounds like it was far from a happy one.

Are you seriously suggesting that neither Berman or Braga would have been able to find work elsewhere?
Are you married with a morgage to pay?

Do you really honestly beileve that there is no competition within the job market and that people can leave jobs and be guaranteed one almost instantly?
Yes, and yes.

Piller, Behr, Echevarria, Moore, all managed to move seamlessly from Trek to other projects. How come Berman and Braga couldn't?

They knew Voyager was coming to an end, they had plenty of time.
As someone already explained, they were under contract. Most of the others you named only left after their contract was up or were released from it.

Paramount was paying B&B well, why should they leave? They aren't working to please you or I, they work to get paid and make ends meet. Who gives a shit if some snot nosed Trek fan a million miles away has issues with the show, why should they? Fans have no clue what it takes to run a TV program or how many nights both those men stayed up writing and doing the shows budget so the families they left waiting at home could eat. It's selfish to think they owe us something and should abandon their jobs just to please us. That's not realistic and that's not how the real world works.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:16 PM   #281
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

One of the posts above infers that they were able to leave at the end of Voyager. Don't know if that's true or not. If it is, then why not leave? They had 12 months knowing that the seventh season of Voyager would be the last.

If the statement was false, then there are ways of maneuvering yourself out. I'll use the Straczynski example again. Refuse to take network direction. They either replace you or let you get away with it. If they replace you, you're freed up for other work.

Considering that Berman had overseen Trek for well over a decade by that point, I find it hard to believe that 1) he wouldn't be able to take a few months out to find other projects before he and his family were on the breadline, and 2) he would struggle to any degree to find work if he wanted it.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:20 PM   #282
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

They were ordered to make ENT while VOY was still on, that's why Ken Biller took over VOY in the last season. Still under contract.

And they didn't have the degree of control that JMS had over all his work (because he was the actual creator of the B5 universe) so his strategy wouldn't work for them.

As for the "DS9 was good because VOY sucked" thing, that's another lie. DS9 had its freedom due to being syndicated, not because VOY took all the attention. Berman was as involved with DS9 as he was with VOY.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:20 PM   #283
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?


Gotham Central said:
On the one hand I think people have given Berman a pass regarding creative mediocrity. Yes UPN may have intervened but Berman had a big hand in ensuring that Trek never took ANY chaqnces.
True. But if you want Berman-Trek in which he had the greatest creative control, I refer you to TNG. There's a marked difference in quality between TNG and the quality of VOY. Part of this is due to UPN, and part of this is due to fatigue, (part of the reason he didn't want this show created to begin with). TNG is a conservative show (as far as risk-taking is concerned), but not a bad one.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:36 PM   #284
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Anwar said:
They were ordered to make ENT while VOY was still on, that's why Ken Biller took over VOY in the last season. Still under contract.

And they didn't have the degree of control that JMS had over all his work (because he was the actual creator of the B5 universe) so his strategy wouldn't work for them.

As for the "DS9 was good because VOY sucked" thing, that's another lie. DS9 had its freedom due to being syndicated, not because VOY took all the attention. Berman was as involved with DS9 as he was with VOY.
Actually, the strategy holds. JMS has always maintained that he won't return to the Crusade storyline as that effectively belongs to TNT/WBs. Given that JMS has used one of the characters back in the B5 main universe after the cancellation it would suggest that JMS has control over the characters to some degree at least. Hence, it's unlikely that TNT would have been able to continue with the show under different direction.

That however, wasn't the point. UPN would undoubtedly have continued knocking out Star Trek whether it was Berman/Braga or someone else. There were definitely ways for them to check out, especially from Enterprise. Yet they chose to stay. What would the point be of them leaving? Presumably their reputations would have benefitted. Whether it's true or not, the perception is that they delivered Star Trek's death knell with Enterprise. They'd also have been freed up for other projects. If Berman and Braga are that great, why would they need the Star Trek crutch to keep them going? The Straczynski situation was highlighted to show that there are ways of maneuvering away from a show without falling foul of the legalities contained within contracts.
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Old January 18 2008, 04:42 PM   #285
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
One of the posts above infers that they were able to leave at the end of Voyager. Don't know if that's true or not. If it is, then why not leave? They had 12 months knowing that the seventh season of Voyager would be the last.

If the statement was false, then there are ways of maneuvering yourself out. I'll use the Straczynski example again. Refuse to take network direction. They either replace you or let you get away with it. If they replace you, you're freed up for other work.


That's why JMS is stuck doing comic books and can't get another B5 project off the ground. The man only had one creative project in his head for what is now close to two decades.

To answer your first question, I'll ask you this: Why do you work?
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