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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 18 2008, 12:09 AM   #256
Anwar
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

blockaderunner said:
KitchenWitch said:
blockaderunner said:
^^^^It still doesn't answer my question of why should Berman and Braga been a part of it if it was that bad? Granted, they would have been out of the money making machine that was Star Trek, but it might have made them look good by the fans and presented them oppurtunities elsewhere to tell stories that otherwise would have been hindered by Trek. They didn't have to be at Trek.
They were under contract at Paramount. Legally, they couldn't back out without incurring huge penalties.


[Nuremburg]"I was only following orders,"[/Nuremburg]
You're saying that anyone should just give up their entire career just over some disputes with the higher-up managements?

If they left they'd violate their contracts, get the pants sued off them, and due to this legal action be prevented from further work. Meanwhile Paramount just hires new dudes who'll keep in line more and make a small profit from the money they got due to B&B's contract violations.

Moore wasn't in their position, he could leave without threat of legal action.
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Old January 18 2008, 01:22 AM   #257
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

^^ Straczynski faced the same problem of network interference when he was producing Crusade for TNT. After initial appeasement he grew weary of their meddling and simply refused to take their 'direction' on board. He stuck to his guns and effectively forced TNT to cancel the show. He didn't need to leave or violate his contract with them, and as such gained more kudos from B5 fandom for not allowing the direction of the show be dictated by network suits. It also hasn't prevented him from finding more work in both the television and comicbook fields.

Why couldn't Berman/Braga do the same? They didn't need to leave, just refuse to be dictated to and then force them to either replace you, or cancel the show. Either way, you're free from your contract without the threat of legal action.

And let's face it, worst case scenario, they're blackballed by UPN. Whoopy fcuking doo......That would be a real career killer.....Not.

Moore left, and after having a creative hand in Roswell and Carnivale, runs nuBSG. Echevarria and Behr left and came up with The 4400. Piller left and gave us The Dead Zone. There's life after Star Trek and the above have been able to carve their niche. Perhaps Berman/Braga realised that they simply weren't as creative as them and therefore couldn't cut the apron strings to free themselves from Star Trek. Lord knows, if Threshold is anything to go by, that's a fairly safe bet....
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Old January 18 2008, 01:30 AM   #258
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:Why couldn't Berman/Braga do the same? They didn't need to leave, just refuse to be dictated to and then force them to either replace you, or cancel the show.
B&B were under no threat of legal action if they chose not to develop the fifth series that became ENT. Many producers have come and again and are replaced. So yes B&B could have turned down working on series five. UPN/Paramount were ready to replace Berman/Piller/Taylor when they at first didn't seem interested in creating another series following TNG's end on tv and DS9 just starting.

They didn't want to because Brannon said he was rejuvenated by the fifth series as he worked on developing it and both said they felt an obligation to carry on the Trek vision to the best of their abilities. It is up to the fans to decide how successful they were or weren't.
Lord knows, if Threshold is anything to go by, that's a fairly safe bet....
I actually enjoyed Threshold.
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Old January 18 2008, 01:36 AM   #259
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

startrekwatcher said:
It is up to the fans to decide how successful they were or weren't.
I think cancellation unequivocally answered that one.
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Old January 18 2008, 01:49 AM   #260
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
^^ Straczynski faced the same problem of network interference when he was producing Crusade for TNT. After initial appeasement he grew weary of their meddling and simply refused to take their 'direction' on board. He stuck to his guns and effectively forced TNT to cancel the show. He didn't need to leave or violate his contract with them, and as such gained more kudos from B5 fandom for not allowing the direction of the show be dictated by network suits. It also hasn't prevented him from finding more work in both the television and comicbook fields.

Why couldn't Berman/Braga do the same?
Less control. They quit, UPN just hires guys to replace them who are equally if not more subservient to UPN's wishes, show likely declines in quality. Nothing is gained, and they're out of a job.

They did the best they could, under the circumstances. It's no exaggeration to say that the things I loved about VOY were their doing.
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Old January 18 2008, 01:54 AM   #261
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
startrekwatcher said:
It is up to the fans to decide how successful they were or weren't.
I think cancellation unequivocally answered that one.
Even if JMS or Ron Moore had made the show from day one it would've been canceled. Moore's BSG is canceled after 4 seasons and until TNG intervened so was Babylon 5. Neither of those acheived the kinds of ratings UPN wanted, and the change in management who was against sci-fi programming would've ended it regardless.
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Old January 18 2008, 02:03 AM   #262
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
startrekwatcher said:
It is up to the fans to decide how successful they were or weren't.
I think cancellation unequivocally answered that one.
Well I think it is a more complex answer than simply arguing the show was cancelled. Afterall there are good or promising series that are canned while subpar stuff goes on for years and years.

I'd also point out that while ENT had a rough first two seasons the show had a marked improvement in seasons three and four. Sure Coto pretty much guided season four but season three was a lot of their vision and played strongly into Brannon's strengths-high concept sci-fi elements, big spectacle imagery, action and plot-driven storytelling.

I think a large part of ENT's problems were the writing and the characters not resonating with the audience. And even the oft-cited savior Coto couldn't really make the characters come alive so he instead focused on the stories and continued the plot-driven approach.
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Old January 18 2008, 02:22 AM   #263
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Hmmm. Rick, Brannon and Jeri haven't worked since Star Trek according to IMDB.

I mean they're all old enough to retire and live off the insane residuals if they weren't enjoying themselves? And if they weren't enjoying themselves, you have to wonder if that was reflected in the product?
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Old January 18 2008, 02:24 AM   #264
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

IMDB must be wrong, since Braga has worked since ENT ended. He did Threshold and now is on 24.
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Old January 18 2008, 02:47 AM   #265
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Oh, sorry. Threshhold. That show is like invisible. Although if we're talking about next season of 24, that could be why he's not listed there yet.

Does this mean that there will be more trek actors produced for 24's cast? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeexcellent.
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Old January 18 2008, 02:47 AM   #266
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Anwar said:
Even if JMS or Ron Moore had made the show from day one it would've been canceled. Moore's BSG is canceled after 4 seasons and until TNG intervened so was Babylon 5. Neither of those acheived the kinds of ratings UPN wanted, and the change in management who was against sci-fi programming would've ended it regardless.
If JMS had been in charge from the beginning, it wouldn't have lasted a season. After completing B5, TNT messed him around with Crusade. Joe's direction is pretty much you do it his way or you don't do it. Hence he forced them to pull the plug during the first season. He'd have been no different with UPN.

Straczynski also walked away from Jeremiah after its second season due to MGM's meddling, in effect forcing them to cancel it.

Ron Moore? Again, contract or no contract, it's unlikely that he would have stuck with the series with UPN looking over his shoulder. He was given a creative freehand by HBO for Carnivale, and Sci-Fi with nuBSG.

Bottom line, cancellation's not the end of the world if your vision's being screwed into something completely different. Straczynski's stood to that principle on more than one occasion. Moore's never had to. Berman and Braga, plodded on regardless.

I'm happy to take your word for it that they did the best that they could under the circumstances, but to be honest, when the writing's on the wall, which it was with Voyager, its audience shrinking with each passing season, they'd have been better served trying to rescue their reputations, and let someone else drive the franchise into the ground.
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Old January 18 2008, 02:50 AM   #267
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

You mean like when Deanna crashed the Enterprise D into the side of a planet?
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Old January 18 2008, 02:56 AM   #268
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

startrekwatcher said:
Well I think it is a more complex answer than simply arguing the show was cancelled. Afterall there are good or promising series that are canned while subpar stuff goes on for years and years.

I'd also point out that while ENT had a rough first two seasons the show had a marked improvement in seasons three and four. Sure Coto pretty much guided season four but season three was a lot of their vision and played strongly into Brannon's strengths-high concept sci-fi elements, big spectacle imagery, action and plot-driven storytelling.

I think a large part of ENT's problems were the writing and the characters not resonating with the audience. And even the oft-cited savior Coto couldn't really make the characters come alive so he instead focused on the stories and continued the plot-driven approach.
The third and fourth seasons were much better than the first two, but in terms of quality Star Trek, they were far from flawless themselves.

Despite the upswing they were unable to attract back any of the viewers that they'd lost over the course of the first two years, and eventually lost even more.

Cancellation's a harsh yardstick, but ultimately is a fair reflection of fans voting with their feet (or fingers on the remote in this instance).

Shows like Andromeda, Mutant X et al survived for as long as they did because they played to their respect audiences, and although they were pitiful series' in themselves, they did that very well. By the time Voyager, and later Enterprise came along, they already had an inbuilt audience, and could do nothing to maintain its interest. Stories over the first two seasons were relatively simplistic, often recycled, and as you've said, did very little for character development in the long term.

Enterprise was just far too bland for its own good. By the time it realised that, it was far too late.
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Old January 18 2008, 03:22 AM   #269
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?


Angel4576 said:
Shows like Andromeda, Mutant X et al survived for as long as they did because they played to their respect audiences, and although they were pitiful series' in themselves, they did that very well.
Also there's budget to consider. Andromeda was dirt cheap, and that's the reason it's the only non-Star Trek space opera (except the similarly cast strapped Babylon 5) to go the distance for five seasons. That's the problem. Without the magic Star Trek name Voyager probably wouldn't have lasted for seven seasons, and Enterprise for four, but both shows were treading both declining goodwill and the continued expense of making the product.

To make a good space opera on Andromeda's kind of budget you really have to struggle through the mediocrity on hand (the story of Babylon 5) but to be pretty consistent one needs a good writing staff and good actors, and both cost money.
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Old January 18 2008, 03:24 AM   #270
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

UPN shouldn't have twisted their arms into doing consecutive series like that. They should've waited until DS9 was done, then maybe wait a year or two before doing VOY, and then waited until VOY was done for a few years before ENT.

Sorry to say, but even early 90s Trek wasn't popular enough to have two shows practically on at the same time (DS9 was towards the end of TNG).
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