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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 17 2008, 07:48 PM   #241
exodus
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

^^^^Dude, I am sooo not liking you today!
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Old January 17 2008, 07:50 PM   #242
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

^^ Ironically, the one day I defend something to do with Voyager!

Well, I consider this a lesson learned. I'll be sure not to do it again!
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Old January 17 2008, 07:57 PM   #243
exodus
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
^^ Ironically, the one day I defend something to do with Voyager!




You know I'm just bustin' your chops.
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Old January 17 2008, 08:33 PM   #244
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?



I feel my work here is done......for now!
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Old January 17 2008, 09:22 PM   #245
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Anwar said:
And quit blaming B&B for everything, most of these big decisions were made for them by UPN. Heck, Braga wanted to get rid of the replicators for good and have "Year of Hell" last for a whole year.
Then why immediately do ENT having learned nothing from VOY? Did they think that the suits would act any differently? Had B&B said "Look. We have a great idea for Series Five, but we want to take at least a year to develop it and refine it and make sure it carries on the grand tradition of Star Trek," Maybe I'd give them some slack. But they took the money and put their flimsy prequel on the fast track to being made and the lies started leaking out: "Of course T'Pol isn't wearing a catsuit". "We know whats going on with the Temporal cold War".

There's enough blame to go around, but don't start playing Trekkie revisionist history and try to exonerate (at least partially) the BooBs.
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Old January 17 2008, 09:29 PM   #246
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

blockaderunner said:Then why immediately do ENT having learned nothing from VOY? Did they think that the suits would act any differently? Had B&B said "Look. We have a great idea for Series Five, but we want to take at least a year to develop it and refine it and make sure it carries on the grand tradition of Star Trek," Maybe I'd give them some slack. But they took the money and put their flimsy prequel on the fast track to being made and the lies started leaking out: "Of course T'Pol isn't wearing a catsuit". "We know whats going on with the Temporal cold War".
Because Paramount/UPN would have just replaced them and forged ahead with getting another series out.

The very same ultimatum was made with VOY when Berman, Piller and Taylor felt it was too soon to rush out another series but they gave in because they felt they would be better in overseeing it than a new group of producers.

re: T'Pol's outfit
IMO isn't a catsuit and if it is who cares.

And I can't take people seriously when they make up juvenile nicknames such as MooreRon or BooBs etc.

B&B did fight for the series by the way. The suits were very resistant to a prequel. Secondly, the duo did work on the series for a good two years starting in VOY's fifth season.
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Old January 17 2008, 09:37 PM   #247
exodus
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

startrekwatcher said:


The very same ultimatum was made with VOY when Berman, Piller and Taylor felt it was too soon to rush out another series but they gave in because they felt they would be better in overseeing it than a new group of producers.


Bingo!

If you read any of Berman's interviews, he says over & over how he wanted to wait a few years before putting the next Trek series on the air(which became ENT.) He knew the ratings were failing on Trek, he knew the fan base was leaving but Paramount/UPN refused to listen. All they wanted was to turn Trek into a marketing franshese and they couldn't do it without having a show on the air. Why else would they push forward with a movie so soon after the failing so recently with ENT.?
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Old January 17 2008, 09:49 PM   #248
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

^^^^It still doesn't answer my question of why should Berman and Braga been a part of it if it was that bad? Granted, they would have been out of the money making machine that was Star Trek, but it might have made them look good by the fans and presented them oppurtunities elsewhere to tell stories that otherwise would have been hindered by Trek. They didn't have to be at Trek. They couijld have easily let some other schlubs take the fall while they fade into obscurity or move on to other projects. They only thing they have to in life is die. Period.
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Old January 17 2008, 09:53 PM   #249
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

blockaderunner said:
^^^^It still doesn't answer my question of why should Berman and Braga been a part of it if it was that bad? Granted, they would have been out of the money making machine that was Star Trek, but it might have made them look good by the fans and presented them oppurtunities elsewhere to tell stories that otherwise would have been hindered by Trek. They didn't have to be at Trek.
They were under contract at Paramount. Legally, they couldn't back out without incurring huge penalties.
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Old January 17 2008, 10:04 PM   #250
blockaderunner
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

KitchenWitch said:
blockaderunner said:
^^^^It still doesn't answer my question of why should Berman and Braga been a part of it if it was that bad? Granted, they would have been out of the money making machine that was Star Trek, but it might have made them look good by the fans and presented them oppurtunities elsewhere to tell stories that otherwise would have been hindered by Trek. They didn't have to be at Trek.
They were under contract at Paramount. Legally, they couldn't back out without incurring huge penalties.


[Nuremburg]"I was only following orders,"[/Nuremburg]
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Old January 17 2008, 10:06 PM   #251
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

blockaderunner said:
^^^^It still doesn't answer my question of why should Berman and Braga been a part of it if it was that bad? Granted, they would have been out of the money making machine that was Star Trek, but it might have made them look good by the fans and presented them oppurtunities elsewhere to tell stories that otherwise would have been hindered by Trek. They didn't have to be at Trek. They couijld have easily let some other schlubs take the fall while they fade into obscurity or move on to other projects. They only thing they have to in life is die. Period.
It was their job.

If everybody walked away from a job just because they didn't like what the boss told them to do, then nobody in the world would ever work. If other such positions were so readily available for them to leave and do other work, I'm sure they would have. Jobs like actor or producer aren't sitting around in the industry ripe like apples waiting to be picked. There are thousands of young people graduating everyday that studied to be actors, writers & producers waiting and looking for jobs(I was one of them). There are thousands of veterans in the industry looking for work competing with these up and comers, all fighting for the same jobs.

I'm sorry but who gives a shit what the fans want, we aren't signing their pay check. B&B don't work for us, they worked for Paramount.
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Old January 17 2008, 10:18 PM   #252
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Alright, folks, DS9 is a scroll up, ENT is a scroll down, and discussion for the 11th movie has its own forum, too.

And if ya really want to compare Berman & Braga to the Nazis and ENT to the Holocaust, maybe ya should place both hands firmly against the desk, push yourself away from the computer & go get some fresh air.
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Old January 17 2008, 10:53 PM   #253
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

exodus said:"Learning Curve" where he punches out one of his Maquis so he learns to follow orders.

"Year of Hell" where he starts to side with Annorax.

"Fury" he orders Harry to rip the ship apart to escape the Viidians.(Best use of Chakotay ever!)

How he went rogue just to hopefully put an end to Seska.

"Unimatrix Zero", Chakotay's superior battle tactics allow Janeway and company to beam on a Borg Cube.

Encouraged the Voth scientist to persue his goals even though he knew it might end his life & career.

For that I always saw Chakotay as private in his personal life but aggressive by nature.
Learning Curve was an ironical use of force. he was literally saying force is stupid by using force stupidly. And it worked since Dalby decided to give up on the Maquis ways in favour of trying to enbiggen himself.

Year of hell. He sided with Annorax because he believed in the goodness of Annorax and thought they could use the weapon to create a non violent solution to extricate Voyager from the year of Hell. None of that could have happened with out Chakotay's faith in the goodness of others. It was Tom who mutinied against Chuckles organizing a violent insurrection and blew the bugger up. Well, kicked it into normal space.

Fury I haven't seen this one a lot like most of the early shows. But are you talking about Chakotay from day 60ish? When the death of his crew was still fresh in his mind? Exagerated youth.

Maneuverers? Imagine a guy getting uppity about fracking with the rapist who fracked him? And still even then, after destroying the transporter technology on a rogue solo mission... he surrenders and accepts Kazon law for punishment since he wasn't going to take his suicide mission to any ridiculous conclusion too quickly. Janeway would have chalked her shuttle up to ramming speed and bounced the sucker off the Kazon City Ships shields.

Unimatrix Zero. Um? His captain asked him to create a battle plan? Again haven't seen in a while.

Distant origin Unless Chakotay was "tricking" those Voth into walking across a religious nut job mine field for giggles... But he was right there arguing for "truth" using reason and speechifying.

I'm just not seeing it bud.
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Old January 17 2008, 11:02 PM   #254
exodus
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

^^Well, I guess that would bring us back to the question: If Chakotay was a peaceful man, how could there be conflict between the Starfleet & Maquis crew? :thumbsup:

Not that you personally were arguing it but I think it might put things in perspective.
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Old January 17 2008, 11:44 PM   #255
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Picard laid it out. There are historical issues to telling native Americans where they are and are not allowed to live.

Of course after he made a moral stand, which resulted in his friends being tortured or murdered? Well the stakes and means for the cause kind of took care of itself.
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