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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 15 2008, 05:19 PM   #136
Ezri
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

misskim86 said:
I think what people feel is that if they didn't bother having any problems between the maqui crew and Star Fleet crew, why the heck did they even bother?
True, the maqui and star fleet crew worked so well it was a pointless topic after the first season. Think they had to move away from the maqui as they were so pointless in DS9. It is a little strange that the last maqui was on Voyager as DS9 said they were all killed.
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Old January 15 2008, 05:54 PM   #137
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

But it goes deeper than that - they get stuck out there for 7 years and people aren't getting sick of the sight of each other? They still all act in that stiff formal way that they did in the first season - it's just doesn't ring true for people to act like that, that's why it made no sense to me - nobody seems to have an inner life that rings true.

It doesn't help that I could never find a reason why the crew would follow Janeway to the bathroom let alone across the universe.
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Old January 15 2008, 06:12 PM   #138
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

misskim86 said:
Year of Hell said:
Out of interest, do we ever have any "what would improve DS9?" threads? Or is it just Voyager is perceived as so bad by other Trek fans that we seem to get it lots?
DS9 was the best show of any Trek series.so no there are no real "what would improved ds9" threads, atleast no serious ones.
That isn't true. I enjoyed DS9 but I wasn't oblivious to its weaknesses and flaws. And that sort of attitude is why a lot of fans think Niners are a bit full of themselves and their show.

DS9 had issues--Jadzia was dull and mishandled, it had a problem with including weak episodes in its arc hurting the momentum, the Ferengi comedies were cringe-worthy, the romance episodes were mostly bad, the show did attempt to have long term romantic relationships but most weren't handled well(Worf/Jadzia, Ezri/Bashir, Zek/Moogie etc), the Klingon conflict was pretty much wasted in season four, season three was an uneven mess, season one was just as weak as some of the weakest Trek seasons, interesting storylines never go anywhere.

DS9 had continuity issues. Sisko's dad is dead then alive, it was the Kressari smugling weapons to Circle not the race they mentioned in the Maquis two parter, they forgot the MU had a cloaking device to name a few.
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Old January 15 2008, 06:13 PM   #139
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Well if they removed Janeway as the Captain, who would be next?

Sure the characters could fight it out to control the ship. It is just lame to keep on fighting without someone being killed. It would just be as lame to capture someone and place him in the brig ... they did that with one character and he got so lame they had to let him die. If it was an all out fight to control the ship, there would be so few characters that the show would be pointless.

Who would want to watch the crew of a ship turn on themselves and destroy each other? If that is the way it was going to be, one or two seasons before being cancelled
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Old January 15 2008, 06:14 PM   #140
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

JoeZhang said:
But it goes deeper than that - they get stuck out there for 7 years and people aren't getting sick of the sight of each other? They still all act in that stiff formal way that they did in the first season - it's just doesn't ring true for people to act like that, that's why it made no sense to me - nobody seems to have an inner life that rings true.

Soldiers stationed over in Iraq get by.

Tom, Be'Lanna or Harry couldn't be station onboard the Enterprise and get away with talking back to the Captain or the mischief Tom did with Harry tampering with Tuvok's religious holo-program. Besides, the senior staff members are still trained Starfleet military. They're supposed to set an example for the rest of the crew. Senior members within our own military don't act up or out of line just because they've been gone from home for years. These are the types of events they have been trained for.

Holodecks are designed onboard Starfleet vessels for stress relief. They are the 24th century's answer to Bob Hope & the USO.
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Old January 15 2008, 06:48 PM   #141
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

startrekwatcher said:
misskim86 said:
DS9 was the best show of any Trek series.so no there are no real "what would improved ds9" threads, atleast no serious ones.
That isn't true.
Nearly true. It's the strongest of all 'modern' Trek. TNG is incredibly dated, Voyager was never that good to begin with, and Enterprise was largely a mess.

The first season aside, DS9 still holds up very well today.




Jadzia was dull and mishandled
Kes, Harry, Chakotay.....



it had a problem with including weak episodes in its arc hurting the momentum.
Voyager was hardly ever able to generate any momentum, instead finding itself checked by long strings of weak standalone episodes. Good episodes were all too often diamonds in the rough.



the Ferengi comedies were cringe-worthy
Yet compared with the Fairhaven episodes come across as being works of high hilarity.


the romance episodes were mostly bad
Star Trek's rarely done that well, at least not in its modern incarnations. However, again, I'd take the Sisko/Kassidy Yates story over that of Paris and Torres any day of the week. That was just a complete yawn, and detracted from one of the few dynamic relationships that actually had worked on Voyager up until that point, that of Paris and Kim.



the show did attempt to have long term romantic relationships but most weren't handled well(Worf/Jadzia, Ezri/Bashir, Zek/Moogie etc)
I particularly liked Chakotay's and Seven's 'long term' relationship.



the Klingon conflict was pretty much wasted in season four
The Borg were pretty much wasted for four years.



season three was an uneven mess
Yet far stronger than Voyager's second, third, sixth and seventh seasons, and still contained some of the series' best standalone episodes.



season one was just as weak as some of the weakest Trek seasons, interesting storylines never go anywhere.
Voyager's second and third seasons could easily give TOS's third and TNG's first and second seasons a run for their money. As far as modern Trek goes, DS9's first season is no worse than TNG's or ENT's. I'll give Voyager credit on that one, as its first season was IMO, one of its best. Sadly it went downhill for a few years afterwards.



DS9 had continuity issues. Sisko's dad is dead then alive, it was the Kressari smugling weapons to Circle not the race they mentioned in the Maquis two parter, they forgot the MU had a cloaking device to name a few.
Inconsequential when viewed against Voyager's ability to repair any and all damage in between the end of one episode and the beginning of the next. Of course that's just the tip of the iceberg, but I don't want to be seen to be nitpicking.....
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Old January 15 2008, 06:55 PM   #142
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Soldiers stationed over in Iraq get by.
And there is no way to get home? and they have no communications to home? and half the company is made up of members of em.. the IRA?

In a real military situation, there is constant rotation of personnel, there is infrastructure to back you up, you can ask for a transfer. It's an entirely different situation - even on extended tours, the soliders know that if they don't get killed, one day they are going home - on Voyager, they don't know that and shouldn't act like that. They are stranded, their actions should be informed by this, they never are - they just do TNG again with the odd nod to the fact that are on the other side of the universe.

Senior members within our own military don't act up or out of line just because they've been gone from home for years. These are the types of events they have been trained for.
But that's just nonsense - you only act that way because you are still operating within the context of that organisational structure. In fact, what you say ties directly into what Moore says about the series, nobody seems that worried and they all act like they are going home soon - they don't know this and shouldn't act like that.
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Old January 15 2008, 07:05 PM   #143
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
startrekwatcher said:
misskim86 said:
DS9 was the best show of any Trek series.so no there are no real "what would improved ds9" threads, atleast no serious ones.
That isn't true.
Nearly true. It's the strongest of all 'modern' Trek. TNG is incredibly dated, Voyager was never that good to begin with, and Enterprise was largely a mess.

The first season aside, DS9 still holds up very well today.




Nothing at all against you Angel but this board in general leans heavily toward DS9, so much so I've even seen some posters go as far as denouncing Roddenberry or believing they know more than him just to uphold DS9 as if was sent down from Mount Olympus. Due to that, it's hard to view posters opinions of it as unbiased.

The moral & ethical lessons covered in both TNG & Voy. hold up to this day just as well as the ones in DS9, regardless of whether the scenary does or not. If it wasn't for TNG, DS9 wouldn't of had the budget or template to make it hold up well.

Without TOS or TNG, there would be no DS9.
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Old January 15 2008, 07:06 PM   #144
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576, you seem to want to mistakenly believe that my post you responded to was intended to be a DS9 vs VOY rant but it was not.

I was simply pointing out that all Trek shows have issues and that despite what rabid Niners would have people believe DS9 wasn't flawless. You seem to think I'm a VOY fan trying to elevate VOY and deride DS9. I realize that occurs often on the internet but that wasn't what I was doing. I was only addresing problems I saw with DS9 without the need to bring VOY into it for comparison.

In fact, I prefer DS9 over VOY but I think it is unfair the way people slam VOY and then pretend DS9 never did anything wrong or never had its share of missteps.

I'm not saying that Kim, Chakotay, Paris are any better than Jadzia. Frankly none of them interested me as they were portrayed. But by simply saying Kim et al are a tad worse than Jadzia doesn't change the fact she wasn't that interesting a character.
It's the strongest of all 'modern' Trek. TNG is incredibly dated, Voyager was never that good to begin with, and Enterprise was largely a mess.
Once again that is your opinion many others might feel differently. I don't find TNG that dated and still enjoy it a gret deal. VOY had some good episodes and I really enjoyed ENT in seasons three and four.
the Ferengi comedies were cringe-worthy
Yet compared with the Fairhaven episodes come across as being works of high hilarity.
Once again degrees of mediocrity is all that I see separates them. Why the need to bring VOY into the discussion? It doesn't have anything to do with the quality of DS9's Ferengi episodes. Still the episodes were bad and doesn't reflect well on DS9.
the show did attempt to have long term romantic relationships but most weren't handled well(Worf/Jadzia, Ezri/Bashir, Zek/Moogie etc)
I particularly liked Chakotay's and Seven's 'long term' relationship.
I didn't care for that either. You seem to believe I liked all the things I didn't like about on DS9 as long as they were on VOY but that isnt the case. I'm not a VOY defender but I do get tired of all the blind adoration of DS9 and the blind hatred of VOY.
the Klingon conflict was pretty much wasted in season four
The Borg were pretty much wasted for four years.
But did I ever say that the Borg weren't wasted. I felt a lot more could have been done with UZ resistance. But as everyone loves to point out DS9 wasn't VOY it is better so why didn't these capable writers do more with it?
season three was an uneven mess
Yet far stronger than Voyager's second, third, sixth and seventh seasons, and still contained some of the series' best standalone episodes.
season one was just as weak as some of the weakest Trek seasons, interesting storylines never go anywhere.
Voyager's second and third seasons could easily give TOS's third and TNG's first and second seasons a run for their money. As far as modern Trek goes, DS9's first season is no worse than TNG's or ENT's. I'll give Voyager credit on that one, as its first season was IMO, one of its best. Sadly it went downhill for a few years afterwards.
DS9 had continuity issues. Sisko's dad is dead then alive, it was the Kressari smugling weapons to Circle not the race they mentioned in the Maquis two parter, they forgot the MU had a cloaking device to name a few.
Inconsequential when viewed against Voyager's ability to repair any and all damage in between the end of one episode and the beginning of the next. Of course that's just the tip of the iceberg, but I don't want to be seen to be nitpicking.....
But these responses you've provided tell me that DS9 did have these problems, and therefore wasn't flawless, but you can only counter them by saying that while they might have been bad on DS9 they were worse on VOY.

And why couldn't VOY repair itself since a lot of the time we don't know the amount of time that passed between episodes. And did we need episodes dedicated each week to see the crew repairing the ship. Nor did I need to see shuttles constructed. Nor did VOY need arcs to be good.
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Old January 15 2008, 07:08 PM   #145
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Eminence said:
Brennyren said:[/i]
This is how I see it: you can justify the lack of conflict and the lack of any real desperation on Voyager any way you like, but at the end of the day, the question has to be: if there is no conflict amongst the crew, if there is no desperation in Voyager's situation, then what, exactly, is it that distinguishes VOY from every other Star Trek series? And the answer, I think, is "not much."

To amplify: What is the point of combining Maquis and Starfleet crews if (except, of course, for the annual "Maquis episode") everybody gets along just fine from the get-go? Might as well make it an all-Starfleet crew in that case. And what is the point of stranding Voyager away from its chain of command and its supply lines if a) being away from the chain of command isn't going to change the way the ship is run (they're still true-blue Starfleet) and b) the crew is not going to have to find any alternate sources of supplies? Might as well leave them in the Alpha Quadrant.

What is the point of introducing differences in the premise if they're not going to have any effect in the execution? Again, I say: not much. Everything that could and should have made VOY daring and unique was frittered away in favor of everything that made it safe and familiar -- and that's a real shame.



One thing I have often wondered about society is when and where in our history did "being different" become such an important metric of being "good", or "worthwhile, or "of quality"??!! Historically, the importance of being different was passionately defended against forces of hegemony, against forces of universalization and normalization, because at the time, they sought to paint "different" as "inferior, less important". It was vital to defend differences so as to ensure equality WITH plurality in our society.

But somewhere along the way, what was "regular", what was "usual" or "ideal", started to become attacked, for not being "different enough". A whole new force of universalization came to be, only this time, being different was considered properly normal. And when these agents of "difference" began such an attack on the fold, they too began perpetuating the same injustice to which they cried foul before.
I start out talking about storytelling values and the next thing I know I'm a symptom of what you see as being wrong with contemporary society -- and I'm supposedly advocating a point of view I don't even agree with. :::: Teach me to shut down the computer and go to bed!

The only answer I can offer to this, Eminence, is that I really don't think saying that VOY should have exploited its premise for facets that would make it unique is quite the same thing as saying whoa! let's eliminate every traditional value, ideal, and standard of normalcy in society. Nothing I said suggested I was an advocate of anarchy. And I am not. Indeed there are some traditional values and ideals I might quarrel with, and I could happily debate all day on what constitutes "normalcy," but this forum really isn't the place for that. I was, and am, discussing storytelling. And on a storytelling level, I say: telling the same story over and over again gets old.

It is a sad turn of events in our sociology, and it is this same sort of attack that I see from Brennyren now, against Star Trek Voyager.
When a thread's titled "What would have improved Voyager?", I don't think that my presenting a reasoned (though admittedly intense) argument on what I think would have improved VOY really ought to be considered an attack.

Voyager was an exploration, an Exam of Starfleet Ideals. The point of the show was to display what can be accomplished when the crew does their level best to maintain those ideals--and boy did they do a great job.
Of course, maintaining your ideals is a whole lot more impressive if you're in situations where they're challenged. To suggest a few examples: we believe in not interfering with the cultural development of a aociety, but what happens when we see a society that, say, enslaves women or children? It would take a hard heart indeed to not be even slightly tempted to interfere, especially if one actually sees these abuses taking place. We believe that it's wrong to trade technology to people who aren't ready for it, but what do we do if that's the only thing they want in exchange for a food or mineral we need for survival? Are we at least tempted? Even when Sam Wildman comes to the bridge and says Naomi is hungry?

When Janeway was excoriating Ransom and the Equinox about how one doesn't abandon Starfleet ideals under trial, wouldn't her words have been much more meaningful if she had faced similar trials and not succumbed to temptation? But she hadn't, and so she came off as being more than a little self-righteous -- and possibly with shades of recoiling from the notion that, there but for the grace of damned good luck might be her?

As I said upthread, I'm not advocating dystopianism or abandonment of Trek ideals. What I would have like to see was those ideals being tested and surviving. That's what would prove they're strong -- not the assumption that they're never to be questioned.

One other thing to note also is that...If in fact your ideals are really and truly strong, then they probably won't come into question all that much! Usually people who end up in moral conundrums tend to be less firm in the belief of their morals to begin with.
Unless you have some stats to back that up, that's an assertion and an opinion. I could -- and do -- as easily say that never questioning your ideals, moral views, and values implies a lack of thought and imagination. And again, a lack of situations in which your ideals are challenged. If I say I'm opposed to theft, but then am tempted to steal when I have no money and my child is hungry, that doesn't mean my morals aren't strong -- it means I have two values coming into conflict. But if, despite being tempted, I don't steal but struggle hard to find another solution, then that's the proof that I really don't believe in theft. Not in never facing temptation, but in surmounting it.

Maybe Sisko's loyalty to the Starfleet way and the Federation's ideals just wasn't as strong as Janeway's?
The only reason I cited Sisko's actions at all is because he was being cited as an authority on the moral values of Federation citizens and ex-citizens. Surely his opinion on the subject may be called into question if he doesn't consistently practice those same values himself?


You draw allusions to DS9,
Actually, most of my comments on DS9 were responses to DS9 references upthread. As for the quotation, "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" (I'm not sure who said it -- Cal Hudson, maybe?), it simply seemed appropriate.

but remember this: DS9 had a war going on. Much of DS9's "differences" from other ST series that you cite are a direct result of that war storyline--take that out, and DS9 is pretty much like any other ST show--watch one of the non-war episodes (early Seasons, for example) to see evidence of this.
Some differences I cited had nothing to do with the war storyline. Sisko always had less complete control of the station than another captain might have had over a ship -- he had civilian authorities to deal with, he had ships and traders coming and going who didn't feel obligated to do as he said, he had foreign (including non-Feddie) nationals on board. He had Cardassian technologies and traps, and the ever-looming presence of Gul Dukat. DS9 always dealt more with religion than any other Trek. In the very first episode Sisko figured in a religious prophecy, and that colored his dealings with many other characters throughout the series. Can you picture something like that happening on another Trek series, as anything more than a one-episode wonder?

For you to expect then, the same level of "difference" from the Federation ideal on Voyager is a bit silly -- Voyager, obviously, couldn't wage war against an entire quadrant!
Who's asking them to?

Further, I for one, would hope that humans wouldn't devolve into the type of moral ambiguity seen on DS9 just because they were far from home?!! I think our ideals are made of much sterner stuff.
Actually, I do too. But I would have liked to see those ideals survive the kinds of situations that would have made adhering to them difficult. And that never happened.

I stand by my assertion: Voyager's crew were, for the most part, presented as being "saints in paradise." How is it an attack, that I thought they could be more?
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Old January 15 2008, 07:16 PM   #146
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

^^ Rumour has it that Behr, Moore et al knocked up their scripts by way of stone tablets though......

Seriously, I've never thought that there's been too much in it between TOS, TNG and DS9. Personally, Voyager was where everything started going wrong with the franchise IMO. whether it be due to the confines of network television, poor writing, or a largely substandard cast I'm not sure, possibly a combination of those elements.

Speaking as a Niner, I'm just happy that Berman, Braga, Taylor etc were so wrapped up in Voyager so as to leave DS9 alone. It worked out quite well for us

Re Roddenberry, it's a shame that some see it that way. I love TOS, and TNG's not far behind. DS9 is different, which sets it apart from any of the other modern Treks.
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Old January 15 2008, 07:18 PM   #147
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
^^ Rumour has it that Behr, Moore et al knocked up their scripts by way of stone tablets though......

Seriously, I've never thought that there's been too much in it between TOS, TNG and DS9. Personally, Voyager was where everything started going wrong with the franchise IMO. whether it be due to the confines of network television, poor writing, or a largely substandard cast I'm not sure, possibly a combination of those elements.

Speaking as a Niner, I'm just happy that Berman, Braga, Taylor etc were so wrapped up in Voyager so as to leave DS9 alone. It worked out quite well for us

Re Roddenberry, it's a shame that some see it that way. I love TOS, and TNG's not far behind. DS9 is different, which sets it apart from any of the other modern Treks.
Because Behr hates Trek.
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Old January 15 2008, 07:20 PM   #148
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Ok I guess I gotta admit myself as a 'niner' ?

And ok sure DS9 had its faults, when I convert new people to trekism I always say "stick thru the first two seasons because from season 3 ds9 becomes one of the best tv-shows period"

But the thing is.. looking at DS9 as a whole.. the show is just simply so good, that you simply don't mind the faults the show has, in fact when the few really bad episodes come (like the risa episode) it's more like a fun comedic break from the seriousness and quality of the rest of the show.

Now I got the Borg cube for xmas and I'm at season 5 and every episode almost ends in a big groan from me, nothing happened really and the show could might aswell have been "Star Trek: Enterprise C"

So yeah DS9 might have its share of faults but making a thread about the faults of DS9 is laughable, especially compared to Voyager which even Voyager fans admit to being an aborted tv-idea
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Old January 15 2008, 07:23 PM   #149
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

exodus said:
Angel4576 said:
^^ Rumour has it that Behr, Moore et al knocked up their scripts by way of stone tablets though......

Seriously, I've never thought that there's been too much in it between TOS, TNG and DS9. Personally, Voyager was where everything started going wrong with the franchise IMO. whether it be due to the confines of network television, poor writing, or a largely substandard cast I'm not sure, possibly a combination of those elements.

Speaking as a Niner, I'm just happy that Berman, Braga, Taylor etc were so wrapped up in Voyager so as to leave DS9 alone. It worked out quite well for us

Re Roddenberry, it's a shame that some see it that way. I love TOS, and TNG's not far behind. DS9 is different, which sets it apart from any of the other modern Treks.
Because Behr hates Trek.
I'm willing to give him some latitude on that one, given the end results, I don't necessarily think that that worked against him, or the series
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Old January 15 2008, 08:07 PM   #150
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Re: What would have improved Voyager?

Angel4576 said:
exodus said:
Angel4576 said:
^^ Rumour has it that Behr, Moore et al knocked up their scripts by way of stone tablets though......

Seriously, I've never thought that there's been too much in it between TOS, TNG and DS9. Personally, Voyager was where everything started going wrong with the franchise IMO. whether it be due to the confines of network television, poor writing, or a largely substandard cast I'm not sure, possibly a combination of those elements.

Speaking as a Niner, I'm just happy that Berman, Braga, Taylor etc were so wrapped up in Voyager so as to leave DS9 alone. It worked out quite well for us

Re Roddenberry, it's a shame that some see it that way. I love TOS, and TNG's not far behind. DS9 is different, which sets it apart from any of the other modern Treks.
Because Behr hates Trek.
I'm willing to give him some latitude on that one, given the end results, I don't necessarily think that that worked against him, or the series
I agree.

Best thing going for DS9 was no Prime Directive.
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