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Old June 22 2009, 12:11 AM   #136
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Reverend wrote: View Post

From what I can tell, The EF NCO leather is in fact black. see here At least as far as I can tell.
It may also have to do with the lighting. It's always appeared to be a dark brown, much like the officer uniforms, on screen, to me.

Reverend wrote: View Post
As for the security uniforms, the third is actually specifically for prison guards. If you look closely you'll see they're a somewhat lighter shade of grey and the B5 Security manual describe them as such.
That uniform was also worn by the Mars security personnel, with the same red-orange EF Mars patch, that investigated the Edgars crime scene in "The Face of the Enemy."

Moreover, and this may just be me, the gray of the Mars uniforms is no different than the ones used on Babylon 5 as seen in the episodes they appear in.

The B5 Security Manual contains some inaccuracies. For example, it states that the division patch is worn on the left chest (on pg. 50) when it is actually worn on the left shoulder. It's the EA badge that's worn on the left breast.

It also states an "EA command patch with your name on it is worn on the left breast (and, where appropriate, any off-world patch)" on page 48. Unless Mortimore/Adams/Clark were trying to refer to Pilot's uniforms, but the preceding paragraph doesn't make that clear as it infers the standard duty ones.

So I'm not sure how reliable it is as a primary source of information. Then again, there isn't a whole helluv a lot of information at there.



Reverend wrote: View Post

As for Zack, the way I understand it, he was given a field promotion by Sheridan (not sure if there's a real world precedent for this) to replace Garibaldi as the CWO and Security Chief and when the civil war was over, all those under Sheridan were given amnesty which I assume means his personnel changes were upheld (he also promoted Ivanova before officially retireing.) Where it get's fuzzy is with the exact status of B5 and it's staff from Season 5 onwards. The station is still independent, but under command of an EF officer, though Corwin (her second) and Zack are still both in the "Army of Light" uniforms. Presumably at some point Zack left the station and was granted a comission (or whatever you call it for a non-com) on the basis of his role and experiance on B5. Then retired and re-upped again about six months before SiL.
A Warrant Officer is a rate or a commissioned officer depending on the service. In Zack's case, I don't know what that term would be for his promotion, especially since EarthForce (or Earthforce, I've seen it spelled both ways, kinda like Star Fleet and Starfleet) is a combined service.

We know from Thirdspace that he is a trained Starfury pilot. Perhaps he previously served in EarthForce then left. When he took Garabaldi's place as Chief of Security or left the station, maybe his EF status was later reinstated.

As for Ivanova's promotion, it shouldn't have been in Sheridan's authority to promote her. He could've recommended her and put her name before the promotion board, but not just up her from commander to captain.

Babylon 5, like Star Trek, hasn't always been accurate to modern military practice and regulations despite JMS's claims to the contrary. So I can look the other way, much like I have with Kirk's rapid promotion in the new movie.

At least, JMS never put Franklin in command of the station like Dr. Crusher taking command of the Enterprise. Although, he did put Franklin in the captain's chair of a White Star... aw nuts. Well, it wasn't a combat situation like it was with Crusher. So I guess it's still okay.
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Old June 22 2009, 02:24 AM   #137
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

^

Dr. Crusher HAD to be in command in that scenario... Counselor Troi, Riker, Worf, Data, Geordi... all the other senior officers who would have been next in the chain of command, were down on the planet where Lore's Borg were... Beverly was the only seniormost officer left, who could assume command of the Enterprise.
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Old June 22 2009, 02:51 AM   #138
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

It may also have to do with the lighting. It's always appeared to be a dark brown, much like the officer uniforms, on screen, to me.
I don't think so. I've looked at better shots of her, the other crewman from 'A Call to Arms' as well as the Aggie & Apollo crews in 'Endgame' and it all looks black to me, especially when seen next to the red/brown leather uniforms.
That uniform was also worn by the Mars security personnel, with the same red-orange EF Mars patch, that investigated the Edgars crime scene in "The Face of the Enemy."

Moreover, and this may just be me, the gray of the Mars uniforms is no different than the ones used on Babylon 5 as seen in the episodes they appear in.

The B5 Security Manual contains some inaccuracies. For example, it states that the division patch is worn on the left chest (on pg. 50) when it is actually worn on the left shoulder. It's the EA badge that's worn on the left breast.

It also states an "EA command patch with your name on it is worn on the left breast (and, where appropriate, any off-world patch)" on page 48. Unless Mortimore/Adams/Clark were trying to refer to Pilot's uniforms, but the preceding paragraph doesn't make that clear as it infers the standard duty ones.

So I'm not sure how reliable it is as a primary source of information. Then again, there isn't a whole helluv a lot of information at there.
Granted the Security Manual is a dubuous source for reliable info and most of the insignia/uniform descriptions read as if they were written during the pre-production of 'The Gathering'. Still, I did notice that the prison guards had a noticeably lighter (though otherwise identical) uniform to the normal security officers, though of course lighting may or may not have been a factor there.

On the subject of the Security Manual, I've been trying to put together a half decent map of B5 and the one in the book has a number of inconsistencies, completely leaves out brown sector and I'm not certain if yellow sector is even canon.

A Warrant Officer is a rate or a commissioned officer depending on the service. In Zack's case, I don't know what that term would be for his promotion, especially since EarthForce (or Earthforce, I've seen it spelled both ways, kinda like Star Fleet and Starfleet) is a combined service.
Well given that Garibaldi's uniform had the "officer" black panel down the front of the uniform, then he (and by extension Zack) was probably the commissioned kind.

We know from Thirdspace that he is a trained Starfury pilot. Perhaps he previously served in EarthForce then left. When he took Garabaldi's place as Chief of Security or left the station, maybe his EF status was later reinstated.
That wouldn't surprise me. A fair amount of ex-soldiers end up in Police forces or security companies. Still, he was seen piloting a shuttle in Season 4 and it could be that getting his Starfury certification was part and parcel of his promotion. Still, that wouldn't preclude his having already served in Earthforce at some point.

Babylon 5, like Star Trek, hasn't always been accurate to modern military practice and regulations despite JMS's claims to the contrary. So I can look the other way, much like I have with Kirk's rapid promotion in the new movie.
Well to be fair, it's not a modern military, it's a fictional future one. So realistically it ought to have as much in common with today's armed forces as today's have with those of the mid-1700's. Still, for the life of me I can't decide if Major should go between Lt & LtCmd or Capt & Col. I've heard all the arguments for both and yet I'm still not sure.

P.S. I thought I was getting a little deja vu, until I've realised we've had this discussion before!

Last edited by Reverend; June 22 2009 at 03:28 AM.
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Old June 22 2009, 08:07 PM   #139
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Reverend wrote: View Post
Babylon 5, like Star Trek, hasn't always been accurate to modern military practice and regulations despite JMS's claims to the contrary. So I can look the other way, much like I have with Kirk's rapid promotion in the new movie.
Well to be fair, it's not a modern military, it's a fictional future one. So realistically it ought to have as much in common with today's armed forces as today's have with those of the mid-1700's.
Fo'sho.

Still, for the life of me I can't decide if Major should go between Lt & LtCmd or Capt & Col. I've heard all the arguments for both and yet I'm still not sure.
That's a toughie since Major Keemer seemed subordinate to Commander Sinclair, but that may have to do with him being in overall charge of the station. And Captain Sheridan seemed subordinate to Major Ryan.

P.S. I thought I was getting a little deja vu, until I've realised we've had this discussion before!
Oh, my. So we have.
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Old June 23 2009, 03:48 AM   #140
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

That's a toughie since Major Keemer seemed subordinate to Commander Sinclair, but that may have to do with him being in overall charge of the station. And Captain Sheridan seemed subordinate to Major Ryan.
Well in those cases, rank and position don't exactly go hand in hand. For one thing, Sinclair (and Sheridan for that matter) was a military governor of a small city, answerable directly to the President and the Senate. Plus I don't recall Jeff snapping off any salutes to the Captain of the Hyperion, despite him technically being a superior officer. As for Kemmer, again, she was outside of the local chain of command and again, as head of presidential security, answerable directly to the President.

As for Ryan, I didn't get any sense of either of them acting subordinate to the other, though Ryan was inclined to take Sheridan's lead, given that he was A) a renegade seeking shelter in Sheridan's turf, so not in any position to be barking orders and B) apparantly not a jar head. They're clearly both senior officers, it's just not clear which one is higher up the pay grade.

My main sticking point though, is how can a full General and Joint Chief of Staff rate an adjutant who's only one grade higher than a Lieutenant?
Probably not an airtight comparison, but when I worked as a civvie in the orderly room of an Army RHQ, the CO was a LtCol, both the Adj and the TechAdj were Captains and the 2IC was a Major. As far as I know, there wasn't any officer lower than Major in the whole building, just a Staffy that I worked with, our boss, a WO2 as chief clerk and the RSM, a WO1.
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Old July 22 2009, 06:45 PM   #141
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Done a few more this week, mainly focusing on the ship logos: -


I've also been making an attempt to figure out a map of exactly where the sectors (Blue, Red, Green etc.) begin and end. So far I've found two different maps that appeared onscreen as well as the one on the Security Manual. If anyone knows of any other variations, I'd be very appreciative!

Oh and I've also been continuing to dabble with the rank insignias.
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Old July 22 2009, 09:22 PM   #142
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Said this over at Flare, just repeating for the audience here....

You've been busy! I'm not sure what all those insignias mean, but they look good. Odd looking star they used on them, though.

As for the map, I can't say any of them look quite right to me, but I assume you're just cataloging the variations for the wiki? I found one here that looks similar to the "Signs & Portents" one, but not quite. Not sure where that one came from. There's another here (scroll down), but it looks fan-made, and honestly looks even more wrong to me. Since you're familiar with the wiki, I assume you've seen this screencap too? One last map I found looks to be made for an RPG, but actually makes the most sense out of all of them to me. It's on this page, just scroll to the bottom and download the zipped PDF.
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Old July 22 2009, 10:20 PM   #143
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

I should probably say that the insignia inside the grey boxes are my own conjecture, just to fill in the gaps.

For now I'm cataloguing the "official" versions; I do have my own particular version of what I think it should really be, but I'd rather not release that until I'm done collating data and have a complete idea.

There are a few complications, mainly to do with the grey, brown and yellow sectors.
With Grey sector, on the graphics it has a habit of either disappearing entirely, switching places with brown or being relegated to the zero-G sections, which contradicts "Grey 17 is Missing" among others where Grey sector (or at least part of it) has gravity and thus must be in the carousel. I think part of the brown/grey confusion stems from the cramped industrial nature of both areas, though Brown sector has been seen to contain businesses, hotels and an open marketplace.
Brown sector, aside from switching with Grey half the time, keeps being refereed to as being synonymous with Downbelow, though there have been several instances where a "Downbelow" area has been seen to be in other sectors.
Yellow sector is something else entierly, in that it's never mentioned on screen (as far as I can tell) and the background info seems to consistently have it encompassing the fusion reactor and sometimes the support structure, all the way down to the forward cargo stabilisers. Either way, strictly a zero-G area, however, in 'TKO', the Mutai and the surrounding area has yellow sector markings, which is a bit of a problem.
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Old July 25 2009, 05:41 AM   #144
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Totally awesome!!! Never enough B5 stuff. The ship logos look perfect, and it's awesome to see the rank system fleshed out.

EDIT: Question regarding the sector map of the station...

I thought Brown Sector was the level closest to the "outer" hull of the station, hence the nickname "Down Below"?
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Old July 25 2009, 11:58 AM   #145
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

That is one of the many confusions I'm trying to clear up.
On more than one occasion there is mention of there being more than one Downbelow, or a downbelow area was seen to be under red sector and yet as you can see, brown sector has been marked on both of the on-screen maps as being a large chunk of the station, not just near the outer hull.
So it would appear that while Downbelow areas are usually close to the outer hull, they're not ALL in brown sector and that Brown Sector isn't just another word for Downbelow; it's just an underdeveloped area that was intended to be another Red Sector, but they ran out of money and couldn't finish it. Though certainly, Brown Sector does contain the very worst parts of Downbelow.

As for the ranking system, it's still not quite right. For the life of me I can't figure out how you're supposed to be able to distinguish between Lt & Lt Col, or for that matter any non-marine corps insignia below the rank of ensign.
As a result I can't be sure what rank Franklin held.
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Old July 29 2009, 01:19 PM   #146
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Just two more this time. The Vorlon one might not look like much but it was a complete bugger getting all the tendrils right. I've got the Starfury squad patches done, I just need to figure out which "wing" patch each one corresponds to.

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Old July 29 2009, 07:06 PM   #147
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Great work! The B5 station logo looks awesome, and aye, I bet it was a real pain in the arse, getting the Vorlon logo right. Damn, now I want to watch the show again.
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Old August 8 2009, 09:58 PM   #148
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

All ship logos this time: -

It can be tough finding good reference for these things! Still have the Heracles, Hermes, Cortez, Apollo, Churchill, Excalibur and Gideon's old Explorer on the "to-do" list, with a question mark next to the Cadmus & Persephone.
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Old August 8 2009, 11:33 PM   #149
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Rev, you ever think about playing in the seaquest universe?
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Old August 9 2009, 11:21 AM   #150
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Re: Logos, logos and some more logos...

Can't say that I do.
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