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Old October 30 2007, 07:14 AM   #16
patlandness
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

^^
Again, I said "a tribute to Trek" not just TOS. It' the Alpha of Trek, but it's not the Omega.

To me this is going to be the problem with Trek XI. It's going to be nothing more than revisiting old nostalgic haunts like Enterprise's last season, rather than sticking to a philosophy, *any* philosophy and you know...EXPLORING and SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT THE HUMAN CONDITION with CREATIVITY.

I've had my issues with DS9, but when all was said and done, Ira Behr and Co. put out a good, quality product and expanded on the Trek Universe. What's come after doesn't come close.

"Trials and Tribble-ations" was a delicious dessert for the 30th Anniversary. But you can't *LIVE* on dessert. "Darmok" (and episodes like it) had nutritional value to keep the Trek franchise thriving for a while longer.

It's a shame that Paramount and lot of Trek fans don't see that.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:05 AM   #17
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

"Trials and Tribble-ations", still love "Darmok", though.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:16 AM   #18
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek tribute?

"Trials" for me. It's not a very deep episode but it has all the humor and fun that is or IMHO should always be part of Trek at some point. Yes, I want the moral dilemmas, conflicts etc. but every now and then I also want the fun. And that's where this episode delivers in spades. So much, in fact, that it's very rewatchable IMHO.

I think "Darmok" is ok but in hindsight I find the premise to be a problem. The message that they're tying to transport is somewhat marred by the feeling that it seems silly (to me anyway) that the universal translator happens not to work here or works in a way that causes the alien captain to keep spouting out seemingly random words. They happen to come together as metaphors so that Picard can understand them and finally piece together what the alien is trying to say (which is another contrivance IMHO).

Also, I think the episode isn't all that deep, really. Yes, it's got a nice message but IMHO that's about it. It could be summed up far more easily and to the point and not so dragged out as is the case here.

The more I think about it, the more I think this poll is a bit problematic. As I mentioned, "Trials" represents one part of what I like about Trek as a whole or what I expect from Trek. To really represent all the different aspects, you'd need more than just one episode per show, I think.
So, for example, if I were choosing episodes from DS9, I'd probably name shows such as "Emissary" (the human condition is closely examined), "Duet" (taught person-to-person drama stemming from major historical events), "The Visitor" (an intimate personal drama), "Call to Arms" (or many others from S5 - 7 with sweeping political and military changes), "In the Pale Moonlight" (political and moral drama), and, finally something like "Trials" (as mentioned: fun).

I really think you can't boil it down to just one episode per show.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:21 AM   #19
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek tribute?

Justtoyourleft said:
"Trials" for me. It's not a very deep episode but it has all the humor and fun that is or IMHO should always be part of Trek at some point. Yes, I want the moral dilemmas, conflicts etc. but every now and then I also want the fun. And that's where this episode delivers in spades. So much, in fact, that it's very rewatchable IMHO.

I think "Darmok" is ok but in hindsight I find the premise to be a problem. The message that they're tying to transport is somewhat marred by the feeling that it seems silly (to me anyway) that the universal translator happens not to work here or works in a way that causes the alien captain to keep spouting out seemingly random words. They happen to come together as metaphors so that Picard can understand them and finally piece together what the alien is trying to say (which is another contrivance IMHO).

Also, I think the episode isn't all that deep, really. Yes, it's got a nice message but IMHO that's about it. It could be summed up far more easily and to the point and not so dragged out as is the case here.

The more I think about it, the more I think this poll is a bit problematic. As I mentioned, "Trials" represents one part of what I like about Trek as a whole or what I expect from Trek. To really represent all the different aspects, you'd need more than just one episode per show, I think.
So, for example, if I were choosing episodes from DS9, I'd probably name shows such as "Emissary" (the human condition is closely examined), "Duet" (taught person-to-person drama stemming from major historical events), "The Visitor" (an intimate personal drama), "Call to Arms" (or many others from S5 - 7 with sweeping political and military changes), "In the Pale Moonlight" (political and moral drama), and, finally something like "Trials" (as mentioned: fun).

I really think you can't boil it down to just one episode per show.
And the premise for "T&T" isn't contrived? How do I count the ways?

As for the silliness. It's no more silly than any a number of TOS episodes (like ending of "The Omega Glory" for instance). But there's a deeper truth beneath that silliness (which has a charm all its own)--and that's one of the elements that has kept Trek afloat for over 40 years...
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Old October 30 2007, 09:31 AM   #20
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

I'll take "Darmok" over any other Star Trek episode made after 1987 (and quite a few made before that time), but T&T really epitomizes the kind of inconsequential, inward-turned Star Trek I care very little for.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:33 AM   #21
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

Zero Hour said:
T&T really epitomizes the kind of inconsequential, inward-turned Star Trek I care very little for.
*bravo*
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Old October 30 2007, 09:43 AM   #22
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

^ But that 'eating up' of its own continuity is really what sets DS9 apart. What am I supposed to care about the Breen-Jem'Hadar alliance in the Chin'Toka system? And people wonder why the show is considered inaccessible.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:47 AM   #23
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

How does Darmok even count as a "tribute" episode? Sure it was living up to tha standards of the best of Trek (and brilliantly so, IMHO), but that's what the writers tried to make TNG be most of the time anyway. There's certainly no indication that Darmok was intended as anything other than a regular episode of the show, unlike T&T, which was a heavily-hyped "event" episode.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:50 AM   #24
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek tribute?

Referring to comments by patlandness:

Well, for me, there's a huge difference. "Trials" is a fun episode whose basic premise is silly in that it's really meant for the fans. As such, contrivances don't really matter as long as the show hits the right tone and the right spirit which IMHO it does. The episode itself doesn't want to be taken seriously.
"Darmok", on the other hand, wants to be taken seriously. And that, IMHO, is why contrivances such as the ones I mentioned do matter. The more seriously a show takes it itself and wants you to take it, the more it needs to get certain just about everything right.
Episodes that deal with more serious subject matters will be scrutinized a lot more than pure fun episodes that clearly wink an eye at you and say: "This is for fun!". IMHO "Darmok" just doesn't hold up to the higher standards. Personally, I simply have a hard time taking it very seriously. I'd also add, as mentioned above, that I don't find it particularly deep in its message.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:51 AM   #25
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

^^
I've always said that "Darmok" was a far more appropriate 25th Anniversary tribute to Trek and the Great Bird than the lackluster "Unification". I stand by it.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:53 AM   #26
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

"Darmok".

"Trials" is fun and airy, but "Darmok" is one of the classic Trek episodes.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:54 AM   #27
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek trib

"Darmok". The kind of high concept, thoughtful stuff that epitomises Trek at its best.

For mine, "Trials and Tribble-ations" is a marvellous technical achievement but very little more than that.
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Old October 30 2007, 09:54 AM   #28
MyCylon
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek tribute?

patlandness, I'm a little confused:

patlandness said:
Both of these episodes are EXCELLENT Four Star out of Four Star episodes, and yet are spectacularly different in as a Trek tribute.

patlandness said:
Zero Hour said:
T&T really epitomizes the kind of inconsequential, inward-turned Star Trek I care very little for.
*bravo*

Which one is it, then?
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Old October 30 2007, 09:59 AM   #29
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek tribute?

^^
You've got a point. I'm a little torn on "T&T". I stand by that "T&T" is a terrific episode and I've watched it tons of times and relished it.

But there's a point to made that it has *now* left a legacy of Trek nostalgia replacing quality Trek storytelling a'la Star Trek XI.

It's a terrific episode that is the symptom of a very bad problem for Contemporary Trek--looking backward rather than forward.
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Old October 30 2007, 11:06 AM   #30
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Re: "Darmok" vs "Trials and Tribble-ations" better Trek tribute?

If the question is what episode is better Trek then i'll vote Darmok.

Darmok is one of the best episodes that shows the Star Trek principles and if i'd have to chose a single episode to show somebody what Trek is about i'd place Darmok very high on that list.

Trials is "just" a fun romp.. a tribute to TOS which started it all. It's for the initiated fans much like most of Enterprise's 4th season was. It was a very good episode but you could only really appreciate it fully if you are already a Star Trek fan and know the background a bit.

As has been said.. the comparison is somewhat off. Apples and Oranges.
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