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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 26 2007, 03:02 AM   #436
Elwin Ransom
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

^Nice! Are the first 11 still in print? I've been looking for them to no avail.
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Old September 26 2007, 03:12 AM   #437
Jan
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

^^ Absolutely. Go to http://www.babylon5scripts.com/ or you can even go to http://www.cafepress.com/thejoestore.165242718 and order all twelve at once (scroll down till you see the button to add all 12 to your cart).

Any and all of them will be available for 90 days after the release of Volume 14. After that, they're gone for good.

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Old September 26 2007, 03:18 AM   #438
Phily B
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

I know that there is a connection between the two, but I wouldn't call them interwined. It was like "Well, we won the shadow war. On snap, forgot about Earth under a guy who makes Hitler look like Ghandi.", I did find the Shadow War came and went very quickly though after all the build up. They spent years building up the support to fight them, then the Vorlons are just like "Frag it, let's just destroy everything and hope we win.".
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Old September 26 2007, 10:52 AM   #439
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

I think that's oversimplifying. The Vorlons would not have taken to such measures, had Sheridan not given them the opportunity to do so by attacking Z'ha'dum itself.
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Old September 26 2007, 12:22 PM   #440
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

It is an oversimplication of it, but it's still valid. I did feel the shadow war went by very quickly, and I didn't like the ending with them just making up and running off somewhere. I also guess the lack of a real central figure leading the bad guys was a bit of a downer too, they didn't really have a face they were just a bunch of faceless black ships a lot of the time. While with Earth, you knew who the enemy was. I didn't hate the Shadow War, just loved the Earth War and thought it was the best part of the series.
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Old September 26 2007, 01:15 PM   #441
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Never forget the fact that when they filmed the end of season 4, there was going to be no season 5. At all. Consequently, the entire story had to be compressed frenetically, with several subplots suffering for it.

Also, understand that this ending was meant to be different. It was not to be some huge conflict resolved in yet another titanic battle. It was what Sheridan said - a war of ideology. It was the quintessential allegory to a very basic human struggle - chaos vs order. Heck... it's a struggle faced by the universe itself, right down to the creation of the stars.

As to the Shadows lacking a "face"... that I can understand. In one sense, that's what made TNG's "Best of Both Worlds" so haunting. To have Picard become a Borg, speaking in that mechanical voice, it was saying "this is your fate". However, consider this. The Vorlons all along manipulated the younger races in a genetic way so they'd appear as beautiful, similar creatures to those same races. The Shadows also used other races to do their bidding. This is why we see Morden, who in effect IS the Shadows face to the humans and other races. It was never their way to work openly until the time was right.
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Old September 26 2007, 02:22 PM   #442
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

The Shadows and Vorlons didn't really "make up". But their disagreement did become meaningless, and they were wise enough to realize it.

The entire source of the conflict was that they disagreed about how the younger races should be guided. At the Battle of Coriana, a fleet made up of all the younger races who were advanced enough to be relevant mutually decided that they would no longer be guided by either side.

Even so, I think they would have simply destroyed the fleet and started over with a fresh crowd of faces if Lorien hadn't been there to convince them of the significance of the decision.

Sadly, Sheridan's "Get the hell out of our galaxy!" line weakens the entire thing, diverting attention from what's really going on at a crucial moment. But there's not much that can be done about that.
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Old September 26 2007, 02:25 PM   #443
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Sheridan's line really didn't bother me all that much, perhaps because I was so caught up in the seeming newness of the type of resolution.

But yes, Lorien's presence was key because both the Vorlons and Shadows venerated him so. It's true that the willingness of the younger races to protect Sheridan's ship helped drive the point home, but it was Lorien who made them understand it deeply enough.
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Old September 26 2007, 05:35 PM   #444
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

While making that post, I did think about BoBW and The Borg but they sort of made Picard the bad guy in that episode, plus it was a one off for the most part until Voyager raped The Borg. I just think a species who are the main bad guys need a face, it'd be like the Dominion without Dukat or Weyoun or the Daleks without Davros. I am sort of glad that it ended a season early, or I think the Earth War may have been a lot less fast paced than it was, I do like fast paced arcs with no filler between. It was slightly disappointing to see that Kosh was the only Vorlon who wasn't an ass clown too.
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Old September 26 2007, 06:25 PM   #445
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Regarding the linkage between the Shadow War and the Earth Civil War, it seems to me that they were pretty well intertwined up until "Severed Dreams"/"Ceremonies of Light and Dark". At that point, the Earth Civil War kind of fell off the map until "Epiphanies". When I was first watching the show 10 years ago, I was kind of expecting the fact that Earth was an ally of the Shadows to be more significant in the Shadow War in late Season 3 / early Season 4, but oh well, it's a minor thing.

Regarding the Shadows having a "face", I'm actually quite happy that we didn't get to know any of the Shadows personally. The Shadows and Vorlons are supposed to be thousands of years ahead of the younger races. Their thinking and their personalities should be as alien to humans as modern human thinking is to cavemen (or even as human thinking is to slugs?). I just don't think a human writer could convincingly pull off portraying a Shadow as a fully fleshed out character.

Yes, we've got Kosh, a Vorlon, but he was written so cryptically that I don't think this was much of a problem. We never really got inside his head. (This is a minor complaint I have with the Technomage Trilogy, which occasionally tried to take us inside Kosh's head. Not sure that I really found it convincing.) Anyway, the bottom line is that I have a strong preference for SF that doesn't try to humanize super-advanced alien races. I just don't think it works very convincingly. (Same logic applies to the Borg, and it's why, while I think First Contact is a fun movie, I really dislike the idea of a Borg Queen.) IMHO, what works much better is when the super-advanced alien race just seems like an unstoppable force of nature, that follows a logic of its own, that we puny humans can barely comprehend. And I'm glad that that's the direction JMS decided to take with the Shadows.
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Old September 26 2007, 06:32 PM   #446
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Phily B said:
I am sort of glad that it ended a season early, or I think the Earth War may have been a lot less fast paced than it was, I do like fast paced arcs with no filler between.
Just to clarify, I forget if this has already been mentioned, but the original idea was to end Season 4 on the events of either "The Face of the Enemy" or "Intersections in Real Time", with the Earth Civil War then ending around 4 or 5 episodes into Season 5. Also, "Into the Fire" would have been a 2-parter and a couple of other things would have been stretched out, like the Minbari Civil War. So, in the "original outline" (to the extent that there is such a thing) the Earth Civil War would have been stretched out *somewhat*, but only by a few episodes.
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Old September 26 2007, 06:40 PM   #447
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

I THINK that S4 was originally going to end with "The Face of the Enemy". If that is the case, it'd be a heckuva way to hang off that cliff. Maybe not quite to the level of "Z'ha'dum", but it'd have been good
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Old September 26 2007, 06:47 PM   #448
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

^^ At various times JMS has said that 'The Face of the Enemy' would have been the Season 4 cliffhanger and at others, 'Intersections in Real Time'. Either way, Sheridan would have definitely been in trouble.

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Old September 26 2007, 06:58 PM   #449
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Personally, I would prefer "The Face of the Enemy" as the finale with "Intersections in Real Time" as the S5 premiere. That way, S4 ends on a note of hopeless uncertainty. S5 would then start you out with a bit of relief but it wouldn't let you off the hook.

BTW, continuing through vol 12. I get a kick out of jms's mea culpa over some of the episodes such as "Learning Curve" . He really takes himself to task over the way he ends "A View From the Gallery" as well, with Mack's interaction with Lochley. Good to hear because he's right on both counts, in my estimation.
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Old September 26 2007, 07:22 PM   #450
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Mack's "You're all right in my book" was probably the line I cringe over the most in the whole series.

He's been pretty forthright about things when he thinks he's made a mistake, I think. I don't agree with his theory about Byron, though.

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