HD experts, help an idiot!

[M]

[image]http://i14.tinypic.com/4uj402p.jpg[/image]

As I have no better way to spent my time: I analyzed the two above posted pics. There really is some picture information (marked red) cropped off on the "Ménage A Troi" one.

[Please, fellow geeks, be so kind as to post my picture. Thanks.]

[LitmusDragon]

Belar said:
[Please, fellow geeks, be so kind as to post my picture. Thanks.]

Here you go:

[USS Mariner]

The real problem with cropping is when you have an action scene, the scene induces nausea because of the fact that not only the camera and the actors are in motion, so so is the whole frame in an effort to fill up the picture properly.

It turns any high-budget film into Vomitville.

[M]

Thank you! I've done antoher one: Here you can see (IF someone will post it) what was also cropped off for TATV! It is marked green.

[image]http://i17.tinypic.com/4uc8v2f.jpg[/image]

[Noname Given]

Belar said:
Wow, I didn't notice that! Could it be that all Enterprise-D scenes in TATV were newly filmed on replicated sets? But if this isn't the case then it would indeed be interesting to watch an episode in 16:9 as it was filmed. (But I still wouldn't give my money in order to see them -- it'd just be interesting ...) Isn't here anyone who can answer the question whether TNG was filmed in 16:9 and then cropped off?

It's quite possible TNG was filed in 16:9 and then cropped, but the problem is, when they do that, th cameraman has a 'box' in his viewfinder showwhat will be seen in 4:3; so, if they are filming and in 16:9 they see plywood, a lighting rig, etc; they don't worry about it - so while it may have been filed with a 16:9 panavision camera/lens system; it was shot with only 4:3 in mind.

And I'm like those above in that I just bought two HD sets for my new house (a 73" Mitsubishi DLP and 5.1 sound system for the living room; and a 42" LCD wall mounted for the bedroom); and I will still always do 'pillar box' mode for shows and TV movies originally shot in 4:3 ratio (and I was a guy who prefered letterbox on standard TVs for wide aspect ratio films too).

Stretching is annoying whether it's done 'smartly' or not; and I find the real pisser about the TNT HD channel is sometimes the films ARE shown in 'true' 16:9 ratio (which still actually crops any Academy format widescreen films, but just crops in much less than a 4:3 pan&scan job); and at other times, they just smartstretch the 4:3 pan and scan version. I guess it depends on whether there has been a native HD tranfer of a film availble or not that they have available to them.

[USS Mariner]

Belar said:
Thank you! I've done antoher one: Here you can see (IF someone will post it) what was also cropped off for TATV! It is marked green.

You know, IIRC, this shot was part of a larger frame, so I don't think it's shot in 16x9 or anything like that. They simply cropped it.

[benny]

Belar said:
A 4:3 program should, IMHO, be watched in 4:3.

Hallelujah. Wholeheartedly agreed.

I never can force myself to watch a widescreen movie cropped to fullscreen on AMC. The pans look unnatural, people look plain weird and objects disappear off the screen for no good reason. No thanks.

[Doug Otte]

AFAIK, they don't film anything in 16:9, unless the new HD video cameras do. Film cameras always do Academy ratio (4:3). The cinematographer's and director's monitors show the intended ratio boundaries so they can correctly frame the shot, then crop it later.

So, TNG was filmed in 4:3, but was cropped down on all sides during editing. The TATV shot above was cropped on top and bottom, but the sides (originally cropped in TNG) we retained.

Please let me know if I'm wrong about this (I often am).

Doug

[Captain Kirk]

Doug Otte said:
AFAIK, they don't film anything in 16:9, unless the new HD video cameras do. Film cameras always do Academy ratio (4:3). The cinematographer's and director's monitors show the intended ratio boundaries so they can correctly frame the shot, then crop it later.

So, TNG was filmed in 4:3, but was cropped down on all sides during editing. The TATV shot above was cropped on top and bottom, but the sides (originally cropped in TNG) we retained.

Please let me know if I'm wrong about this (I often am).

Doug

You are correct that 35mm film cameras shoot with 4:3 aspect ratio (the picture is the same shape as the frame of film).

A cheap way to get widescreen is to shoot with a framing much wider than you intend for the audience to see with instuctions that the film should be matted at the top and bottom during projection to achieve a 16:9 ratio. Some eary transfers of film to VHS did not take this into account. I used to have an old VHS of a Woody Allen movie from the 70's where you could constantly see boom mics at the top of the frame and cables on the floor at the bottom. Mr. Allen is a great director and of course knew these items were in the shot, they were just never supposed to be seen. This was a case of the technician that was transfering the image to tape "projecting" it incorrectly.

The more common and more expensive technique used to get wide images on a square piece of film is to use anamorphic (panavision) lenses. The lens squeezed a wider image onto the square film frame. Then, when it is projected onto a screen, a special lens on the projector stretches the image back out to make it look normal (and wider than a 35mm film frame).

Most HD video cameras have wide (16:9) chips (the video equivalent of film) and can record the image in native 16:9, without the need of anamorphic lenses.

[LitmusDragon]

They could always re-crop as best suits the 16:9 and then use digital processing to remove any boom mics or other unintentionals that happen to be in the frame.

Yes, that makes it an even more mammoth project. But as technologies advance this kind of thing will only become easier and easier to do.

I understand the arguments about re-cropping screwing up the framing. Certainly I wouldn't want them to recrop to a smaller version of the original 4:3 shots. But, if they used the wider pre-cropped stock, and kept the original 4:3 intended shot at center frame while adding additional information around the edges, I think that could work really well.

[Trekker4747]

But in a very real way, Trekker, you prove my point. People, including you, like to watch television with the picture filling up the whole screen whether it was meant to be that way or not. The idea that TNG-R wouldn't be widescreen one way or another,

Well, I watch it that way, in part, because I'm too lazy to always change the settings whenver I switch medias, in part because it dosen't bother me and mostly because I don't want to unevenly wear the screen. But as for "short and fat" I've never really picked up on it even when flipping between the different formats.

[DarkHelmet]

Trekker4747 said:
Well, I watch it that way, in part, because I'm too lazy to always change the settings whenver I switch medias, in part because it dosen't bother me and mostly because I don't want to unevenly wear the screen. But as for "short and fat" I've never really picked up on it even when flipping between the different formats.

Trekker, what type of TV do you own? If it's LCD you don't need to worry about "uneven wear".

[Trekker4747]

Rear Projection. The manual for it specifically said to avoid watching TV in 4:3 mode too much.

[AviTrek]

LitmusDragon said:
They could always re-crop as best suits the 16:9 and then use digital processing to remove any boom mics or other unintentionals that happen to be in the frame.

Yes, that makes it an even more mammoth project. But as technologies advance this kind of thing will only become easier and easier to do.

I understand the arguments about re-cropping screwing up the framing. Certainly I wouldn't want them to recrop to a smaller version of the original 4:3 shots. But, if they used the wider pre-cropped stock, and kept the original 4:3 intended shot at center frame while adding additional information around the edges, I think that could work really well.

I think you misunderstood the earlier post. When a movie is filmed it is shot on 35mm(4:3) and then the top and bottom can be cropped(assuming it wasn't an anamorphic lens). In that case there is material on the top and bottom that could be used depending on anything too problematic showing. For a TV show that is originally 4:3 there is no extra material. On occasion there might be some material that was cropped to zoom in a little, but on most scenes there is no extra material to use. To make the image wide screen you must crop off the top and bottom.

[LitmusDragon]

AviTrek said:
I think you misunderstood the earlier post. When a movie is filmed it is shot on 35mm(4:3) and then the top and bottom can be cropped(assuming it wasn't an anamorphic lens). In that case there is material on the top and bottom that could be used depending on anything too problematic showing. For a TV show that is originally 4:3 there is no extra material. On occasion there might be some material that was cropped to zoom in a little, but on most scenes there is no extra material to use. To make the image wide screen you must crop off the top and bottom.

Do we know for sure that the entire 4:3 frame was used? The reused ten-forward sequence from "These Are the Voyages" would seem to suggest that the videotape transfers were cropped from wider shots. That extra information off to either side of the replicator has to come from somewhere.

Now whether this applies to the show as a whole or in only a few particular shots is not certain. Can we get the TNG editing staff in here to comment?