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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old July 13 2007, 03:13 AM   #16
Trekker4747
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Have you seen the remasters of Hogan's Heroes, Knight Rider, The Equalizer or Charlie's Angels in HDTV? They've all been cropped for 16:9. Only occasionally do you miss the top or the bottom; the mask is floating to get the most information possible.
But, see, that's not really the point.

A) You could argue cropping like that is "changing the director's artistic intent" for the scene/show.

And B) Widescreen isn't about "filling the screen" videophilles prefer OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) TNG wasn't filmed in widescreen so it shouldn't be presented in widescreen.
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Old July 13 2007, 03:25 AM   #17
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

A) You could argue cropping like that is "changing the director's artistic intent" for the scene/show.

And B) Widescreen isn't about "filling the screen" videophilles prefer OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) TNG wasn't filmed in widescreen so it shouldn't be presented in widescreen.
That's sums up perfectly what I think about all this 16:9 cropping. Wouldn't that be the same as cutting off pieces of a Picasso -- just because a new generation LIKES to see a picture in x way?

And what actually is the point in redoing something that is an established work of art (and after so many years TNG certainly is one)? I don't really get it ...
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Old July 13 2007, 03:39 AM   #18
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

The purpose is to resell it.

Unfortunately, most TNG watchers doesn't look on it as a piece of art but as entertainment.

Paramount's options are to either crop it or have the Average Joe spread the picture wide and make Picard look as fat as Kirk. People want to fill the screen one way or another. I sold widescreen TVs for too many years, preaching the advantages of window boxing (with the bars on the sides) only to see EVERY SINGLE ONE of my customers, even those ones with 10' screens, either zoom in on the picture or opt for spreading the picture wide and fat. Every single one wanted the picture to fit their new wide screen. It was disheartening but a great wake-up call.

Don't believe me? Take your own poll. Have you ever gone into a bar or restaurant with widescreen TVs and NOT seen a 4:3 picture that is either spread wide or zoomed in and cropped? I haven't.

I'm just telling you that yours (or my) purist Trekkie objections be damned, TNG-R would be in widescreen because that what people want to watch.
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Old July 13 2007, 03:45 AM   #19
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

What I don't get is why the supposed customer of such remastered DVDs -- the people who LOVE TNG (and only know it in the 4:3 format) -- would WANT to see their beloved series (if only entertainment, art or both) cropped as it wasn't meant to be.

What kind of mentality is that?
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Old July 13 2007, 03:50 AM   #20
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Trekker4747 said:
Have you seen the remasters of Hogan's Heroes, Knight Rider, The Equalizer or Charlie's Angels in HDTV? They've all been cropped for 16:9. Only occasionally do you miss the top or the bottom; the mask is floating to get the most information possible.
But, see, that's not really the point.
Yes it is. All I am saying is if you watch one of these old shows in 16:9, it works. We're not talking about the director's intention or videophile purist demands. I am saying you can crop a 4:3 show down to 16:9 and it doesn't seem cropped for the vast majority of the scenes.

I have tried hard not to like these remasters on HDNet and, sorry, I can't. They, in general, look good to me. Not perfect but quite acceptable.
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Old July 13 2007, 03:52 AM   #21
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Belar said:
What I don't get is why the supposed customer of such remastered DVDs -- the people who LOVE TNG (and only know it in the 4:3 format) -- would WANT to see their beloved series (if only entertainment, art or both) cropped as it wasn't meant to be.

What kind of mentality is that?
The same mentality that puts steak sauce on a perfectly cooked steak.

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." -- Henry Mencken
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Old July 13 2007, 03:54 AM   #22
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Paramount's options are to either crop it or have the Average Joe spread the picture wide and make Picard look as fat as Kirk. People want to fill the screen one way or another. I sold widescreen TVs for too many years, preaching the advantages of window boxing (with the bars on the sides) only to see EVERY SINGLE ONE of my customers, even those ones with 10' screens, either zoom in on the picture or opt for spreading the picture wide and fat. Every single one wanted the picture to fit their new wide screen. It was disheartening but a great wake-up call.
Well, I watch TNG on my TV all of the time (on DVD) on "stretch" without any porpotion issues, since my TV stretches the sides more than the center so the main part of the image (the center) isn't distorted.

It's never been a problem with me. But I, kind of, see your point. But I don't think we should go around ruining, cropping, or changing things for the mouth-breathing drooling masses.
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Old July 13 2007, 03:58 AM   #23
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

^ And I watch 4:3 television window boxed. I even have a pre-set that will switch my 4:3 DVDs over to window boxing.

I wish I didn't have this attitude that TNG-R would be cropped to 16:9. I guess I'm just too cynical to think it won't happen.
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Old July 13 2007, 04:01 AM   #24
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Outpost4 said:
^ And I watch 4:3 television window boxed. I even have a pre-set that will switch my 4:3 DVDs over to window boxing.

I wish I didn't have this attitude that TNG-R would be cropped to 16:9. I guess I'm just too cynical to think it won't happen.
So as I said in my last post, rather than crop to 16:9 why not "smartly stretch" it into 16:9?

I've had several people watch my TV and not notice the distortion issues. (It's only obvious when a character is standing on the side of the screen, then one side of their body is noticably fatter than the other or when the camera pans across something, lines and objects react as you'd expect over the transition.)

But, to me, doing that is preferable to losing information or artificialy cropping the picture.
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Old July 13 2007, 04:11 AM   #25
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

But, to me, doing that is preferable to losing information or artificialy cropping the picture.
Yes, it may be preferable. But why having the trouble in the first place? A 4:3 program should, IMHO, be watched in 4:3.

But don't try to convince me. It seems to be just MY strange sense for aesthetics ...
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Old July 13 2007, 04:14 AM   #26
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Trekker4747 said:
Outpost4 said:
^ And I watch 4:3 television window boxed. I even have a pre-set that will switch my 4:3 DVDs over to window boxing.

I wish I didn't have this attitude that TNG-R would be cropped to 16:9. I guess I'm just too cynical to think it won't happen.
So as I said in my last post, rather than crop to 16:9 why not "smartly stretch" it into 16:9?

I've had several people watch my TV and not notice the distortion issues. (It's only obvious when a character is standing on the side of the screen, then one side of their body is noticably fatter than the other or when the camera pans across something, lines and objects react as you'd expect over the transition.)

But, to me, doing that is preferable to losing information or artificialy cropping the picture.
I don't like a "smart stretch" picture. While my widescreen TV is too old to do that, I see it all the time on TNT-HD. When I do, I turn to a different station.

What you like, I don't like. What I like, you don't like. It's a quandry.

But in a very real way, Trekker, you prove my point. People, including you, like to watch television with the picture filling up the whole screen whether it was meant to be that way or not. The idea that TNG-R wouldn't be widescreen one way or another, I think that is just not realistic.


Belar said:
But, to me, doing that is preferable to losing information or artificialy cropping the picture.
Yes, it may be preferable. But why having the trouble in the first place? A 4:3 program should, IMHO, be watched in 4:3.

But don't try to convince me. It seems to be just MY strange sense for aesthetics ...
I share your ethic completely. I just know Mr. Typical doesn't.
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Old July 13 2007, 12:17 PM   #27
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Trekker4747 said:
So as I said in my last post, rather than crop to 16:9 why not "smartly stretch" it into 16:9?
That's worse than cropping. The only thing worse than seeing short and fat people waddling across a 16:9 frame is fat people on the edges, getting steadily thinner as they reach the centre. Sensitive cropping would be preferable, together with the additional picture information in the film which was lost when it was scanned to video with wetgate or whatever.
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Old July 13 2007, 03:37 PM   #28
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

How about leaving it as is and letting the viewer decide what method they prefer with their own TV/DVD?
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Old July 13 2007, 04:02 PM   #29
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Are we sure that the original film stock is 4:3? These were posted a while ago (thanks StewMc) but here is an original shot from Menage a Troi:



Then how the same clip appeared in widescreen for "These Are the Voyages":



It appears that there is at least some information in the picture beyond what made it to the videotape.

Maybe it was filmed in 16:9 then cropped to 4:3 for the video? (Yes, I'm being optimistic)
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Old July 13 2007, 04:27 PM   #30
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Re: HD experts, help an idiot!

Wow, I didn't notice that! Could it be that all Enterprise-D scenes in TATV were newly filmed on replicated sets? But if this isn't the case then it would indeed be interesting to watch an episode in 16:9 as it was filmed. (But I still wouldn't give my money in order to see them -- it'd just be interesting ...) Isn't here anyone who can answer the question whether TNG was filmed in 16:9 and then cropped off?
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