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Old May 11 2007, 05:00 PM   #196
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Hello everyone, it's so nice to see old friends still professing their love for the best couple in Trek history. :thumbsup:

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Old May 11 2007, 06:23 PM   #197
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

HopefulRomantic said:
Glad you like the T'Pol picture. I'm no boushh or Hoshi's sis, but I'm learning.

"Vulcan eroticism"... oxymoron? Or maybe you're talking about a scene like the one from STIII when Saavik was doing that finger-touch thing with newly-reconstituted young Spock? They did a really good job with that, but ummmm...
I just want aliens to stick to their own concepts.

T'Pol was born on a pretty dry planet. I doubt Vulcans squander large amounts of water on showers that were initiated largely -- if not solely -- for the purpose of seducing each other.

So when she dreams about showering with Trip? For me that's the major .

Trip always comes to her quarters for VNP. In her dream, she goes to him and enters his quarters "without knocking" so to speak. He's just gone to bed. He looks at her curiously. She has an expression Trip has never seen before because she's experiencing pon farr (what the hell, as long as they've already introduced it . But it's not the "Bounty" version idiotically caused by a virus; it's natural pon farr, driving true passion as opposed to mere horniness).

We don't hear them speak (just like in the original dream) but we can see them talking. He's still in bed and asks why she's there. She approaches without responding. She sits on the bed, reaches down and grasps his wrist, just as Spock did with Saavik. Trip tries to pull away because she's hurting him, but she doesn't let go. She pries open his hand so she can stroke the palm and fingers. Trip's trust and curiosity take over and he stops resisting. She continues to stroke his hand, his fingers, and then his face. He starts to "get it" and uses his free hand to stroke the fingers clutching his wrist. She releases him, stands up and drops her robe. She's wearing a diaphanous gown similar to those we saw on the priestesses(?) on Selaya in Search for Spock. She reaches up and touches Trip's face to meld with him -- to "feel his thoughts" (might as well get something useful out of "Fusion." )). We can see Trip gasp with the intensity of the mental contact and his face reflects fascination. He leans in to brush against her. (Finger stroking only goes so far with humans. ) They continue to touch and stroke, he kisses her. She kisses him back with such intensity that she hurts him and he pushes her away. She appears briefly confused and alarmed by the power of her own passion. She turns away for a moment and shudders. When she turns back to face him, her face is showing the early signs of deformation due to the effects of the trellium. Trip recoils from her and she attacks him...

T'Pol awakens and bolts up in bed.
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Old May 12 2007, 01:17 AM   #198
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

JiNX-01 said:
I just want aliens to stick to their own concepts.

T'Pol was born on a pretty dry planet. I doubt Vulcans squander large amounts of water on showers that were initiated largely -- if not solely -- for the purpose of seducing each other.

So when she dreams about showering with Trip? For me that's the major .
I see your point. I guess it didn't bother me because 1) it's a dream, and I figured it was symbolism; 2) T'Pol has been on Enterprise for almost three years, with that shower in the bathroom of her quarters, and I assumed that she had become accustomed to using that human contraption; and 3) T'Pol prefers chamomile tea to theris-masu, so maybe she likes water showers too.

Also, someone suggested to me once that T'Pol might have dreamed of showering with Trip because that's what they did after their get-together in Harbinger. Interesting theory.

Trip always comes to her quarters for VNP. In her dream, she goes to him and enters his quarters "without knocking" so to speak. He's just gone to bed. He looks at her curiously. She has an expression Trip has never seen before because she's experiencing pon farr (what the hell, as long as they've already introduced it . But it's not the "Bounty" version idiotically caused by a virus; it's natural pon farr, driving true passion as opposed to mere horniness).

We don't hear them speak (just like in the original dream) but we can see them talking. He's still in bed and asks why she's there. She approaches without responding. She sits on the bed, reaches down and grasps his wrist, just as Spock did with Saavik. Trip tries to pull away because she's hurting him, but she doesn't let go. She pries open his hand so she can stroke the palm and fingers. Trip's trust and curiosity take over and he stops resisting. She continues to stroke his hand, his fingers, and then his face. He starts to "get it" and uses his free hand to stroke the fingers clutching his wrist. She releases him, stands up and drops her robe. She's wearing a diaphanous gown similar to those we saw on the priestesses(?) on Selaya in Search for Spock. She reaches up and touches Trip's face to meld with him -- to "feel his thoughts" (might as well get something useful out of "Fusion." )). We can see Trip gasp with the intensity of the mental contact and his face reflects fascination. He leans in to brush against her. (Finger stroking only goes so far with humans. ) They continue to touch and stroke, he kisses her. She kisses him back with such intensity that she hurts him and he pushes her away. She appears briefly confused and alarmed by the power of her own passion. She turns away for a moment and shudders. When she turns back to face him, her face is showing the early signs of deformation due to the effects of the trellium. Trip recoils from her and she attacks him...

T'Pol awakens and bolts up in bed.
Sexy intro to your version. I'm not sure about the mind-meld part... At this point, does T'Pol know any more about melds other than what Tolaris showed her, which is that melds are used to attack and violate the minds of others? I haven't seen Stigma for a while, so I don't recall whether she still believes melding is a "deviant" practice, or whether she's been enlightened.

And since dreams are a means by which the subconscious mind communicates what the waking mind has suppressed... what do you think the new dream is saying? If T'Pol is going to Trip's quarters, compelled by pon farr to have sex with him (not choosing him as her lover because she is in love with him), does it mean T'Pol is choosing the human world over her Vulcan world... but that her Vulcanness (powerful pon farr sex) might hurt Trip?

Naw, I know that's not what you meant.
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Old May 12 2007, 01:44 AM   #199
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

HopefulRomantic said:
JiNX-01 said:
I just want aliens to stick to their own concepts.

T'Pol was born on a pretty dry planet. I doubt Vulcans squander large amounts of water on showers that were initiated largely -- if not solely -- for the purpose of seducing each other.

So when she dreams about showering with Trip? For me that's the major .
I see your point. I guess it didn't bother me because 1) it's a dream, and I figured it was symbolism; 2) T'Pol has been on Enterprise for almost three years, with that shower in the bathroom of her quarters, and I assumed that she had become accustomed to using that human contraption; and 3) T'Pol prefers chamomile tea to theris-masu, so maybe she likes water showers too.
I liked the dream analysis you found, but the trouble here is that T'Pol is not human. What works as symbolism for us isn't going to work on an alien mind. Three years of exposure to humans isn't going to turn her into a human, either. She might very well enjoy the shower but that doesn't mean she's going to associate it with Vulcan sexual behavior.

Also, someone suggested to me once that T'Pol might have dreamed of showering with Trip because that's what they did after their get-together in Harbinger. Interesting theory.
Did they? I don't recall that.

Trip always comes to her quarters for VNP. In her dream, she goes to him and enters his quarters "without knocking" so to speak. He's just gone to bed. He looks at her curiously. She has an expression Trip has never seen before because she's experiencing pon farr (what the hell, as long as they've already introduced it . But it's not the "Bounty" version idiotically caused by a virus; it's natural pon farr, driving true passion as opposed to mere horniness).

We don't hear them speak (just like in the original dream) but we can see them talking. He's still in bed and asks why she's there. She approaches without responding. She sits on the bed, reaches down and grasps his wrist, just as Spock did with Saavik. Trip tries to pull away because she's hurting him, but she doesn't let go. She pries open his hand so she can stroke the palm and fingers. Trip's trust and curiosity take over and he stops resisting. She continues to stroke his hand, his fingers, and then his face. He starts to "get it" and uses his free hand to stroke the fingers clutching his wrist. She releases him, stands up and drops her robe. She's wearing a diaphanous gown similar to those we saw on the priestesses(?) on Selaya in Search for Spock. She reaches up and touches Trip's face to meld with him -- to "feel his thoughts" (might as well get something useful out of "Fusion." )). We can see Trip gasp with the intensity of the mental contact and his face reflects fascination. He leans in to brush against her. (Finger stroking only goes so far with humans. ) They continue to touch and stroke, he kisses her. She kisses him back with such intensity that she hurts him and he pushes her away. She appears briefly confused and alarmed by the power of her own passion. She turns away for a moment and shudders. When she turns back to face him, her face is showing the early signs of deformation due to the effects of the trellium. Trip recoils from her and she attacks him...

T'Pol awakens and bolts up in bed.
Sexy intro to your version. I'm not sure about the mind-meld part... At this point, does T'Pol know any more about melds other than what Tolaris showed her, which is that melds are used to attack and violate the minds of others? I haven't seen Stigma for a while, so I don't recall whether she still believes melding is a "deviant" practice, or whether she's been enlightened.
Well, I used it because she did exhibit curiosity about melds and might have picked up a rudimentary understanding of how to make a basic (primitive?) emotional connection. I don't know that she considers the act of melding itself perverse anymore.

And since dreams are a means by which the subconscious mind communicates what the waking mind has suppressed... what do you think the new dream is saying? If T'Pol is going to Trip's quarters, compelled by pon farr to have sex with him (not choosing him as her lover because she is in love with him), does it mean T'Pol is choosing the human world over her Vulcan world... but that her Vulcanness (powerful pon farr sex) might hurt Trip?

Naw, I know that's not what you meant.
Again, you're putting a human interpretation of dream analysis into a Vulcan head. I was actually looking at what she experienced on the ship in Impulse. Vulcans who had not only lost their emotional controls, but also their sanity. The mixture of the trellium use, her knowledge that she is playing with fire and the realization of the true consequences if she doesn't stop all add up to the real possibility that she could harm Trip, even kill him.

This is the stuff of nightmares: That we could harm the people we do care most about.
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Old May 12 2007, 02:47 AM   #200
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

i think from the first time i saw the dream it might be connected back to this is what they were doing right after the encounter in harninger.
that tpol was spending a vast amount of time recreating the data base that had been destroyed in chosen realm may had planned after a certain amount of time to go back on duty.
and trip showed her the fun way to clean up.
they both were dressed and at their posts when all heyal breaks lose.
it may be that trip couldnt sleep goes back to his cabin and gets dressed to check out engineering.

but, after three years i could see how tpol would experience a shower as a sensual treat.

but i could see how she is fearful of what the withdrwal from the trellum is doing to her.
she almost attacks trip in azati prime to keep him from following her (which can be seen as she was trying to protect him.. heck she didnt come up with that crazed scheme until trip and malcolm wanted to take enterprise in)

and it is possible on some level she is concerned if trip could survive an encounter with her true uncontrolled nature.
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Old May 12 2007, 04:43 AM   #201
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

I don't find it that much of a leap to think that she might enjoy the whole shower thing. She's already curious about emotions and about humans. She's been living there for three years, and the shower appeared in a dream. It isn't like she was sitting there thinking logically about what would be an appropriate sensual experience for a Vulcan. It was something that got worked into her subconscious, regardless of what it could mean through dream analysis. We all could dream about something that we have no experience with, nor would normally want to experience... It's a dream.

I actually find that a lot of what HR found is what I originally interpreted from that dream.

And yes it has been brought up before that maybe she's drawing on experience too.

Now if I retcon things a bit one could also argue that her connection to Trip may have been coming into play. It isn't known how long they were having "day dreams" and an argument could be made that they just didn't realize what those dreams were. Maybe some of what she was bringing into that dream wasn't from her mind...

The other thing is that B&B were going for a bit of shock value with that scene. It's supposed to sort of come out of no where within the context of the episode. Yes, it does illustrate something, but I think it was also something that was supposed to make one sit up and take notice as it being a little "off" regardless of the pairing.

Would something else have accomplished the same thing... possibly, but I was OK with what was there, warts and all.
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Old May 12 2007, 08:33 AM   #202
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

For me it boils down to this: I don't like to see T'Pol lose her Vulcan identity just because she's been hanging out with humans for three years.
Yeah, maybe she would learn to really enjoy showers as a sensual experience, but this all goes back to the same fundamental gripe I've had about her relationship with Trip: I wanted to see them integrate their natures into a relationship we could enjoy and respect. There would have been plenty of room for conflict as Trip struggles to understand and accept the nature of the Vulcan heart and mind (he would probably never hear "those three little words") and T'Pol tries to deal with the needs of a man whose heart is permanently attached to his sleeve.

Instead we're subjected to watching T'Pol endangering her life and sanity and by extension, endangering not only the crew, but all of humanity. I hate that the writers decided she should behave so irresponsibly.

I love the TnT relationship -- the chemistry between Connor and Jolene worked beautifully for me -- but the angst and bull**** was incredibly aggravating.
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Old May 12 2007, 10:42 AM   #203
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Yeah, maybe she would learn to really enjoy showers as a sensual experience, but this all goes back to the same fundamental gripe I've had about her relationship with Trip: I wanted to see them integrate their natures into a relationship we could enjoy and respect. There would have been plenty of room for conflict as Trip struggles to understand and accept the nature of the Vulcan heart and mind (he would probably never hear "those three little words") and T'Pol tries to deal with the needs of a man whose heart is permanently attached to his sleeve.

oh i agree with a lot of the above. i wish we didnt have all the angst after the vulcan arc of their seperating again.

yeah i know they wanted them apart for the whole crazy space walk thing,bond ect but i would have been happier to see them really work through the process of dealing with grief together without the neuropressure as tpol talks to trip about how vulcans view it.
we know they acknowledge , more openly then any other emotion oddly enough it seems.
the whole concept of "i grieve with thee" not only acknoldges the grief of the other but expresses emapthy you might not expect from a race like vulcans.

one suspects they would have rituals that allow them to acnowledge grief without it over coming them and taking them on a destructive path.

this is what i wish we had seen after kirshara.

just like i have a preference in bound that instead of a human kiss tpol had shown trip the vulcan kiss.

but, i guess i am not hung up about the concept that vulcans might grow to like water and dont see it as a threat of losing their nature because i still have images of spock in voyage home.
not just swimming to meld with the whales but the end of the movie when they are in the water.

the desert can still be an intergral part of your nature wherever you go but you can appreciate the joy of water too.

ps sorta..
actually i kinda wondered if vulcan had always been mostly desert.
if the planet had gone through a serious nuclear bombardment when the romulans left could it have done something to the planet.
that i am not sure about.
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Old May 12 2007, 03:30 PM   #204
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

I don't care if she learns to love showers or develops an allergy to soap. I object to the idea that T'Pol is doing her damndest to become human (gee, that theme AGAIN? ). I want her to remain Vulcan. I don't want to see three years of constant exposure to human beings undoing 60+ years of being a Vulcan. They are different from us. Not just sociologically, but physically. Their minds are different, their nervous systems are different, their social structure is different.

T'Pol is played by a human being in pointed ears. But that doesn't mean she has to be one.
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Old May 12 2007, 03:40 PM   #205
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

I guess just don't see T'Pol's subconscious mind coming up with that dream as something that makes her lose her Vulcan identity. I also have never really seen her as having lost that identity. I saw her struggle with it, and threats made to it, but not lose it. She was never human to me. A human wouldn't have some of the problems that she has had.

While I also would have loved to see things like the Vulcan kiss introduced, and more sharing of Vulcan traditions, I do have to acknowledge that half of this pairing is human. So they will not relate to each other in a purely Vulcan way, and I don't feel that they should. I think it should have been a compromise. It would have been nice to get past the angst (though I don't mind angst at all) and seen some more traditional Vulcan things introduced into the relationship, but as it was there were things that were introduced. The NP was Vulcan, even if one didn't like it. The IDIC is Vulcan. The whole wedding fiasco is Vulcan. The bond is Vulcan. The hand greeting is Vulcan. Trip tries to pronounce Vulcan words while doing the NP and visiting Vulcan. So there was stuff there, just maybe not enough, but a lot goes into making a TV show and T/T were not the main focus, so not including something was to be expected. If the show had gone on maybe we would have seen a Vulcan kiss or a more sure of herself and her Vulcan identity T'Pol, but I guess that's that.
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Old May 12 2007, 04:35 PM   #206
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

I hope nobody considers the direction of this discussion OT. I don't mean to take it there.

I don't mean to suggest she doesn't exhibit Vulcan social norms.
But I don't see most of the instances above as integrating their different selves into an intimate relationship.

IDIC is Vulcan, but I don't recall her teaching Trip in a bid to foster his understanding of Vulcan. Same with the neuropressure.
The Vulcan salute? I never saw Trip use it anywhere but at her mother's home and from the very first time I saw the episode, I figured T'Pol taught it to him on the way to Vulcan because her mother would expect a proper greeting. Oddly, we never see T'Pol use it when she greets V'Lar in Fallen Hero and I don't recall her using it any other encounter with Vulcans).
So Home was probably Trip's first exposure to it. So again, it has nothing to do with his relationship with T'Pol.

While I also would have loved to see things like the Vulcan kiss introduced, and more sharing of Vulcan traditions, I do have to acknowledge that half of this pairing is human. So they will not relate to each other in a purely Vulcan way, and I don't feel that they should.
I agree. The trouble is, she's relating to Trip in a purely human way. She's not showing him how to please [/b]her[/b]. When she tells him how old she is, and explains that such revelations are intimate, he appreciates it for what is.

Imagine that Harbinger scene again, but instead of kissing him, she stops the neuropressure, hesitates for just a beat and then reaches down, gently takes his wrist in her hand (not like in the nightmare) shows him how to hold his fingers and begins to stroke the fingers, the palm, all the while looking into his face. Meanwhile, he's watching what she's doing, fascinated. She stops. He "gets it" and does the same to her and realizes this is how Vulcans express intimacy. He kisses her.
When they separate, she begins to remove her robe, her shoulders bare as the scene fades to black (sorry, guys! )). The adult viewers would know what happens next and maybe, just maybe, the writers would have retained a molecule or two of sense and ended the "will they or won't they" right then and there because they did and they do.
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Old May 12 2007, 05:17 PM   #207
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

^^ The problem is that the nature of their relationship didn't allow for these types of things at that point in time. Perhaps if Amanda Cole didn't enter the picture there could have been a more gradual progression that would include scenes of Vulcan related intimacy. T'Pol wanted to get her point across really quickly in the "Harbinger" scene and in a way that Trip would understand, being that he can be a bit dense around women as it is. Now we weren't privvy to the more intimate details of that encounter so for all we know T'Pol did introduce Vulcan practices into it.

Now I would have loved to see an exchange like the one you wrote up there, but after "Harbinger" I just don't think there was that much opportunity for it. The only break in time I could see it happening would be after "Zero Hour". They needed to be in a certain frame of mind for this type of exchange to happen. The whole wedding thing and the Kirshara thing threw a wrench or two or three into things. The were stuck in miscommunication land.

If we had progressed into season 5 maybe there would have been more chances for the type of exchange that I think many of us would have liked to see.

I guess I don't get stuck on my expectations or wishes of what it would have or could have been. I'm a fan of the pairing as they were for the most part. I have my pet peeves. I just tend not to focus on them as much. And even though I'm a fan of how they were, I don't mean to imply that I wouldn't want them to grow from that. I just acknowledge that there was room for them to grow, and perhaps they would have moved in that direction in season 5, both as individuals and as a couple.
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Old May 12 2007, 07:02 PM   #208
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Looking over the previous posts, I don't see anyone suggesting that T'Pol become human, or wants to, or should, or that the Damage dream is suggesting that...

And JiNX, the relationship that you mentioned wanting to see between Trip and T'Pol... I agree with boushh that it was probably planned for Season 5, which we didn't get. The show got killed. There are plenty of things to be dissatisfied about, enough to develop an ulcer over if you dwell on them... I try to focus on the good things we did get, and extrapolate from there on what might have been, through fanfiction and such.

JiNX-01 said:
IDIC is Vulcan, but I don't recall her teaching Trip in a bid to foster his understanding of Vulcan. Same with the neuropressure.

The Vulcan salute? I never saw Trip use it anywhere but at her mother's home and from the very first time I saw the episode, I figured T'Pol taught it to him on the way to Vulcan because her mother would expect a proper greeting. Oddly, we never see T'Pol use it when she greets V'Lar in Fallen Hero and I don't recall her using it any other encounter with Vulcans).

So Home was probably Trip's first exposure to it. So again, it has nothing to do with his relationship with T'Pol.
About the Vulcan greeting... since we didn't see why Trip learned it, the reason can be whatever is credible for you. I imagined that Trip had seen Vulcans greet each other with the ta'al in the past, and he asked T'Pol to teach him how to do it, because he wanted to show respect to her mother. So for me, it meant quite a lot to T'Pol and their relationship.

T'Pol taught Trip neuropressure in an act of compassion to help ease insomnia brought on by traumatic nightmares. Okay, the primary reason wasn't to pass on Vulcan culture, but I was fine with her reason... and again, there were plenty of sessions where we weren't present, and they were probably talking. Maybe T'Pol was telling Trip about the cultural background and history of the practice.

Sure, it would have been cool if there had been a line here or there demonstrating that Trip had been soaking up a little Vulcan culture during those NP sessions... but with the pressure TPTB were under trying to keep the show alive, I don't think that was their top priority, y'know? And just because we didn't see Trip practicing Vulcan meditation, that doesn't mean he never learned. We saw them for 24 hours out of a year; they weren't in stasis the rest of the time. They had to be doing something.

In hindsight, I'm amazed we got as much T/T as we did, and I'll happily fill in the blanks, and speculate about how their relationship would have progressed.
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Old May 12 2007, 07:20 PM   #209
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Whew! This is a fascinating discussion, and makes me feel the loss of season 5 even more.
Yes, I’m sure there would have been more of TnT with T’Pol showing Trip “how to please her”, not necessarily acting like a Vulcan male, because he couldn’t do that, but enough to satisfy her need for intimacy, just as she would satisfy his.
It would have been interesting to see if the writers could have handled it subtly, instead of, as happened in S3, rushing it to get it in before the end!
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Old May 12 2007, 09:23 PM   #210
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Yes this is a fascinating discussion. I enjoyed HR posting about the Damage Dream it makes sense to me. Boushh, HR and Snapper you made excellent pointa s well.I think if we had a season 5 it was meant to show the relationship between Trip & T'Pol would change and we'd get to see events continued from season 4. It's one of the reasons I'm so interested in the Enterprise relaunch books.And fanfiction as well. I think T'Pol had to find her own way to show her feelings for Trip in her own Vulcan way she did show cared about in him the Forgotten it was pretty obvious how she supported Trip and was there when he needed her when he finally broke down and grieved for Elizabeth at last.Her control was almost overwhelmed by her emotions when Trip broke down.Her comments about being overwhelmed when a friend or a collgue dies saying the emotions overwhelms us, I think she was talking about herself as well. her comment "You're the ones to be envied ." Speaks volumes of how much she's changed over 3 years. And being with Trip she's come to realize that she feels deeply about him. As a Vulcan she's dealing with those emotions and regaining her control she's still Vulcan and that's what I find so fascinating about her character she's so different from Spock he wanted supress his Human emotions she wanted to experience her Vulcan emotions .
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