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Old May 3 2007, 02:18 AM   #166
tothebridge
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Captain X said:
Afterwards she seems to regret this and she starts to avoid Trip when he's alive and well.

Yes, from Trip's comment in “Proving Ground,” it seemed the dynamic between T’Pol and Trip may have changed in some way after “Similitude” –- Trip seemed to think T'Pol might’ve been avoiding him. (It seems strange that Trip would look at it that way, though, since they were still doing the neuropressure three times a week, which was still quite a bit of one-on-one, personal time.) I guess T’Pol may've been uncertain about how to react now to some of the flirty banter that seemed to come out when they worked together, so maybe she was avoiding some of the daily interaction that might’ve happened between them in the past, like sitting together in the mess hall or helping out in engineering. It would’ve been interesting to see another n-p session and how T’Pol was behaving towards Trip directly after the events of “Similitude.”


A few pics from “Proving Ground”


T'Pol comes to engineering to check on progress of repairs.



Trip asks if she can help him with something.



Working together



Trip says that he thought T'Pol might be avoiding him.



T'Pol gives him a brief look, while Trip glances at her sideways



T'Pol reminds Trip that three sessions of neuropressure a week is hardly avoiding him.



Hmmm....Trip smiles as he realizes that T'Pol has a point -- guess those neuropressure sessions aren't so bad after all



Later, Trip notices how T'Pol reacts to one of his comments about the repairs and asks if something is wrong.



T'Pol seems preoccupied and a little troubled. I think she still wonders about Shran's motives.




Trip and T'Pol working together makes me smile and reminds me of



another pair....
courtesy HopefulRomantic


Sorry for two posts in a row, but the materials seemed like too much for one....
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Old May 3 2007, 03:14 AM   #167
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

I was thinking about T'Pol's last scene with Sim in Similitude again. We know that at least part of the reason T'Pol started taking trellium was to improve her interactions with the crew. In other words, she wants to understand them better and thinks that being able to display or at least empathize with them will help her. Another aspect of the kiss in Similtude might relate to that: Sim's about to die and she's giving him this kiss because it's what he wants, even if it's outside the realm of what she would normally do. I don't mean she forced herself to kiss him, I mean that she might normally choose to express affection or affinity in a different way but was specifically choosing to do it in a very "human" way. I would think that this is the equivelent of laying open one's soul for a Vulcan.
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Old May 3 2007, 06:08 AM   #168
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

tothebridge said:
^^HR, lovely video. I really like how all the moments sort of build on each other to the “epiphany” at the end.
Thank you. I loved seeing your Proving Ground caps, since I was staring at that scene for a few hours trying to figure out how to cut it into the vid just right. I just love Trip's smile.


Trip and T'Pol working together makes me smile and reminds me of



another pair....
courtesy HopefulRomantic


Sorry for two posts in a row, but the materials seemed like too much for one....
No complaints from me.

galleywest said:
I was thinking about T'Pol's last scene with Sim in Similitude again...

...I mean that she might normally choose to express affection or affinity in a different way but was specifically choosing to do it in a very "human" way. I would think that this is the equivelent of laying open one's soul for a Vulcan.
I like the way you put that, galleywest.
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Old May 4 2007, 12:14 AM   #169
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

[QUOTE]
HopefulRomantic said:
tothebridge said:

Trip and T'Pol working together makes me smile and reminds me of



another pair....
courtesy HopefulRomantic


No complaints from me.


Wow, I love the connection on those two pics. Great catch, ttb.
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Old May 6 2007, 03:49 PM   #170
tothebridge
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

How about some "Harbinger" comments and caps?

I always find "Harbinger" to be an interesting episode for analysis because even amongst those that enjoy T/T storylines, it seems to generate a range of opinions and reactions.

I tend to have mixed feelings about the episode. On the one hand, I can enjoy certain elements like the T/T interaction and banter -- some good scenes where they play off each other well with good timing and great expressions and body language.

On the other hand, I was somewhat disappointed in the plot and that the writers chose this way to "advance" their storyline. It seemed like a lost opportunity of sorts. They already had set up an interesting scenario in "Similitude" with T'Pol finding out about Trip's feelings and perhaps starting to be aware of her own, so I would've preferred that they continue to explore that avenue as a means of bringing them closer.

Instead, they went with a jealousy storyline, and while I don't have a big problem with the jealousy angle, I think it would've been more effective if there had been more build up and if the "rival" had been someone we'd seen seen or met before. As it was, it was tough for me to believe Trip had any strong interest in Amanda and that she was anything more than a big plot device.

Also, the "morning after" scene is one that still puzzles me to some degree. It seemed to be intended as sort of an open-ended, coy, "wink, wink, this could happen again" type of scene, but seems a bit of a disconnect because of what came after.

So, what did others think of "Harbinger?" Did you like most, some, or none of it? Did the T/T actions and reactions (e.g., T'Pol's jealousy, Trip's response to T'Pol's "overtures") make sense? Should Trip have concluded that there was something "wrong" with T'Pol because of her behavior?


Here're a few screencaps as prompts. I won't try to cover every moment. (JiNX has some great caps, especially of Trip expressions over in the Trip thread.) These are just a few that stand out for me.


T'Pol fingers slip as she is giving Amanda neuropressure. Interesting how different the whole atmosphere is for Amanda's session (no candles, silky pajamas, etc.)



Amanda and Trip (after she slaps him on the rear)



T'Pol's reaction



T'Pol's tries to give Trip some logical, impartial advice about his interactions with Amanda, but I think Trip's a little suspicious about her true motives.





And later....

Trip wonders if he's jealous of himself (i.e., Sim)....


T'Pol is curious as well and wants to know if Trip is jealous.



Trip tries to cover immediately and says he's not jealous



T'Pol's looks away from Trip and seems pensive (not the answer she wanted or expected it seems)


Then she seems to take a deep breath, blink a few times, while



continuing to avoid Trip's gaze



Trip seems to sense her disappointment/hurt, so he relents and admits that maybe he's a little jealous



Now he has T'Pol's full attention again.
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Old May 6 2007, 06:29 PM   #171
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Harbinger is my guilty pleasure episode. It is a very significant episode for TnT, and there are several things about it that I really like. However, I wish the "main event" had been handled differently.

I love T'Pol's facial expressions in this episode. The way she first looks bothered about Trip giving Amanda VNP when Phlox mentions it. The way her jealousy is quite evident during the practice. The way she almost nerve-pinches Amanda . The way she tries to measure Trip during their VNP session. And if it was not for the way she shifts her eyes over the mug in the "morning after" scene, I would have not liked that scene at all.

The jealousy is nice to watch. During the VNP dialogue, you realize T'Pol took Sim's words as if they were coming from Trip. She knows he's attracted to her, and this Trip giving Amanda VNP thing doesn't make sense to her. And Amanda's obvious interest in the chief engineer isn't of T'Pol's liking at all. However, I still don't get why she decided to go ahead and seduce Trip. And this is where I get to why I'm not entirely happy with this episode. I felt like the writers wanted to get to the end of the "Will they/won't they" stuff, and since they did it in a hurry, it ended up being less than it could have been. So, that's my opinion about Harbinger; a part of me acknowledges how important for TnT it is, and another one wishes it had been entirely different.
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Old May 6 2007, 07:11 PM   #172
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

tennisgirl said:
However, I still don't get why she decided to go ahead and seduce Trip.
Oh, wow, I do.

Amanda makes it pretty obvious during her VNP session with T'Pol that her interest in Trip is way past sympathetic buddy.

Now T'Pol knows from Sim that Trip has feelings for her.

[[And I do think it was largely Trip's feelings Sim is experiencing, tho' his infatuation with T'Pol as "teenager" suggests he is capable of caring for her as well.

Anyway, Sim has known T'Pol "all his life," but considering the brevity of that life, it wouldn't account for feelings for her that are strong enough to compel him to express them. I would argue that emotionally Sim -- without Trip's memories and life experiences in his head -- would be practically an infant, even when he's physically a man. In fact, I think that in a way, Sim is a child. Children don't have the history of being hurt in intimate relationships and will more readily express their feelings... and it's Sim who open his heart and tells her how he feels -- not Trip with his "three relationships that all ended badly." Sim would remember Trip's experiences in those failed romances, but he didn't suffer the emotional pain of rejection.]]

So T'Pol, who has been around humans long enough to know that interest wanes if it isn't encouraged, makes her move, before Cole can make hers.
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Old May 6 2007, 07:40 PM   #173
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

I liked some of tha banter, but I thought most of it was childish and immature. I really wished they hadn't brought in Cole just to act as a plot device, making anything Trip sopposedly had with her literally come out of no where, and disappear again just as fast. Like tothebridge, I really wished they'd gone a more mature route with this and actually made something out of it instead of making it essentially a one-night stand. Frankly that doesn't fit either character. The morning after scene was just as irritating and stupid.

As for if Trip could have recognized anything as being "wrong" with her, no, I don't see how he could've. Asside from showing signs of jealousy (which she's done before to an extent), she really didn't seem much different than before Impulse.
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Old May 7 2007, 12:21 AM   #174
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

My impression was Trip would of never made a first move. It was lucky for him Sim came along, or he probably would actually have ended up in the arms of Cole. T'Pol would not of made a move either, (now this is just my opinion, but the girl has had eyes on him since, oh, I dunno, forever ) the fact Sim pronounced his feelings, it was only logical to her that she act on them when it seemed he was chased by another.

Now, that in itself is all fine and dandy. I can buy Trip and Cole were friends offscreen, there's only so much you can show in screentime, so that wasn't a stretch really. I mean, Trip is probably mooned over by half the female population on the ship. Anyways, the confrontation the morning after was handled terribly. It did in a way remind me of their scene at the end of "Bound", where they seemed overly casual about the situation, but deep down they both knew there is infinitely more to it. But, initial thoughts count a lot more than hindsight I think, and this scene was ridiculous.

I'm not sure why they could not of given her a more 'adult' excuse, I mean, I didn't think Vulcans were big on the whole casual sex scene. . It was silly for both of their characters; like a guy would take that so easily after spending the night with presumably someone he cared quite a lot for. Blarg ! There would of been just as much tension between the two with an explanation of their ranks/work situation being in the way of any 'relationship' they may wish to pursue, but I really think the writers took the immature/easy way out. I literally yelled at my screen the first time I saw it and T'Pol said what she did, it did not put her in a favourable light at all.
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Old May 7 2007, 02:31 AM   #175
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

kalysto said:
... (now this is just my opinion, but the girl has had eyes on him since, oh, I dunno, forever ) ...
"Unexpected." I swear that whole scene in sickbay when T'Pol is ragging on Trip about holographic parents and not sticking his fingers where they don't belong... she sounded pretty territorial to me.
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Old May 7 2007, 02:33 AM   #176
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

JiNX-01 said:
kalysto said:
... (now this is just my opinion, but the girl has had eyes on him since, oh, I dunno, forever ) ...
"Unexpected." I swear that whole scene in sickbay when T'Pol is ragging on Trip about holographic parents and not sticking his fingers where they don't belong... she sounded pretty territorial to me.
Preach on! (Although I swear I saw sparks between TnT on Broken Bow )
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Old May 7 2007, 03:26 AM   #177
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

tennisgirl said:
JiNX-01 said:
kalysto said:
... (now this is just my opinion, but the girl has had eyes on him since, oh, I dunno, forever ) ...
"Unexpected." I swear that whole scene in sickbay when T'Pol is ragging on Trip about holographic parents and not sticking his fingers where they don't belong... she sounded pretty territorial to me.
Preach on! (Although I swear I saw sparks between TnT on Broken Bow )
Yeah, me too, but this is the first time it's overt on her part.
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Old May 7 2007, 04:55 PM   #178
tothebridge
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

JiNX-01 said:
tennisgirl said:
However, I still don't get why she decided to go ahead and seduce Trip.
Oh, wow, I do.

Amanda makes it pretty obvious during her VNP session with T'Pol that her interest in Trip is way past sympathetic buddy.

Now T'Pol knows from Sim that Trip has feelings for her.

[[And I do think it was largely Trip's feelings Sim is experiencing, tho' his infatuation with T'Pol as "teenager" suggests he is capable of caring for her as well.

Anyway, Sim has known T'Pol "all his life," but considering the brevity of that life, it wouldn't account for feelings for her that are strong enough to compel him to express them. I would argue that emotionally Sim -- without Trip's memories and life experiences in his head -- would be practically an infant, even when he's physically a man. In fact, I think that in a way, Sim is a child. Children don't have the history of being hurt in intimate relationships and will more readily express their feelings... and it's Sim who open his heart and tells her how he feels -- not Trip with his "three relationships that all ended badly." Sim would remember Trip's experiences in those failed romances, but he didn't suffer the emotional pain of rejection.]]

So T'Pol, who has been around humans long enough to know that interest wanes if it isn't encouraged, makes her move, before Cole can make hers.

Yep, I agree.... Even though I thought it could've used more set up, the jealousy angle of the episode is one element that does make sense to me, especially since T'Pol had shown jealous-like tendencies previously. And in this case, she had even more reason to be jealous. After all, she had been sharing these intimate n-p sessions with Trip (as well as their normal flirty type interactions) for months and she had gone out of her way to try to relate to him, and in the process they had become closer. It must've seemed to T'Pol that Amanda was encroaching upon everything that had developed between herself and Trip over the past months, so T'Pol took the action that she thought would keep Trip's attention (and affections) focused on her.

She probably could have done that just as well with an admission of attraction and maybe a kiss. But I suppose T'Pol's view of humans was that sex was an important element of relationships, so she thought seducing Trip would have the highest impact, especially if that’s what Amanda was leading up to.

Captain X said:
Like tothebridge, I really wished they'd gone a more mature route with this and actually made something out of it instead of making it essentially a one-night stand. Frankly that doesn't fit either character.
Yes, I think the writers could’ve taken a more serious approach. But even with the shortcomings of the episode, I don’t think they were setting up the seduction as a one-night stand. I think Amanda and the jealousy angle were just the catalyst for getting Trip and T’Pol to acknowledge and act on the attraction and other feelings that had been developing between them.

And despite the awkwardness of the dialogue in the morning after scene, I thought the last part (Trip’s comment that they could continue doing the neuropressure and T’Pol’s coy expression) was a way of leaving things open-ended in that Trip and T’Pol both seemed aware now of the attraction/feelings between them, but what might come of it in the future was uncertain. And I think someone once posted a script note for that scene – something that suggested that neither of them was certain that what had happened between them wouldn’t happen again.


As for if Trip could have recognized anything as being "wrong" with her, no, I don't see how he could've. Asside from showing signs of jealousy (which she's done before to an extent), she really didn't seem much different than before Impulse.
Yes, I agree. T’Pol had been taking the trellium to relate to others (especially Trip) more easily, but there hadn’t really been any major and overt changes in her behavior up to that point. And if certain scenes ((e.g., the Impulse movie convo and the Similitude n-p session) are any indication, it seems there may’ve been some subtle changes in that T’Pol was responding to Trip in a more “human” way. If Trip noticed those types of changes, though, I think he’d probably assume she was becoming more comfortable with him because of all the time spent together. And when he finally did pick up on the jealousy in Harbinger, it probably seemed like a natural progression from the more “human” way T’Pol had been behaving.


kalysto said:
Anyways, the confrontation the morning after was handled terribly. It did in a way remind me of their scene at the end of "Bound", where they seemed overly casual about the situation, but deep down they both knew there is infinitely more to it.
Yeah, the writing for that scene could’ve been a lot better. It seemed they were both in self-protective mode…pulling back and covering a bit – T’Pol with the exploration explanation and Trip with his “let’s just forget it happened.” As you indicated, though, it did seem that they knew there was more to it. As mentioned above, I thought the context of those last moments in particular was that they both knew there was something between them but weren’t sure exactly where it might lead (or where they wanted it to lead at that point).
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Old May 7 2007, 05:44 PM   #179
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

tothebridge said:
Yes, I think the writers could’ve taken a more serious approach. But even with the shortcomings of the episode, I don’t think they were setting up the seduction as a one-night stand. I think Amanda and the jealousy angle were just the catalyst for getting Trip and T’Pol to acknowledge and act on the attraction and other feelings that had been developing between them.

And despite the awkwardness of the dialogue in the morning after scene, I thought the last part (Trip’s comment that they could continue doing the neuropressure and T’Pol’s coy expression) was a way of leaving things open-ended in that Trip and T’Pol both seemed aware now of the attraction/feelings between them, but what might come of it in the future was uncertain. And I think someone once posted a script note for that scene – something that suggested that neither of them was certain that what had happened between them wouldn’t happen again.

I have to disagree with you there. While some might have liked the banter between them just prior to the kiss and the robe drop, I found it silly. Then the morning after just ruined everything. They were far to casual about it, which is why I call it one-night stand. Between the "exploration" comment from T'Pol and the "let's forget it ever happened" comment from Trip right before he suggested they keep up the VNP, it came off as a one-night stand of casual sex, and as I said, that really doesn't fit either character, but especially not T'Pol, I don't care how Trelled up she was. Not only that, but it really doesn't fit in with what happened later. Script note about the possibility of them screwing again or not, they didn't for the rest of that season. They only ever started getting comfortable with each other again in The Forgotten and Countdown. We know they stopped doing the VNP. It was just played completely wrong and it came off as really immature. If T'Pol had seemed bothered rather than coy, and Trip had shown that he was hurt and didn't know what to make of it, that would have fit with what came later better. But, I'd rather have had everything played out more maturely to begin with.

Fortunately I have Foundations for that.
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Old May 7 2007, 10:43 PM   #180
tothebridge
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Re: Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

Captain X said:
I have to disagree with you there. While some might have liked the banter between them just prior to the kiss and the robe drop, I found it silly. Then the morning after just ruined everything. They were far to casual about it, which is why I call it one-night stand. Between the "exploration" comment from T'Pol and the "let's forget it ever happened" comment from Trip right before he suggested they keep up the VNP, it came off as a one-night stand of casual sex, and as I said, that really doesn't fit either character, but especially not T'Pol, I don't care how Trelled up she was.
Ok, I see what you mean now. I think it comes down to how one interprets the T/T comments and how one defines “one night stand.” To me a one night stand is a casual sexual encounter (not likely to be repeated) between two people who have little true or deep feeling for each other.

I don’t apply that definition to this situation because it seems there was “evidence” leading up to and after “Harbinger” that Trip and T’Pol already had feelings for each other at this point. “Similitude” and “Home” pretty much established the nature of Trip’s feelings. And “Harbinger” suggests that T’Pol had started to develop feelings for Trip as well. (Otherwise, why would she be jealous of Amanda in that way?) Also, in E2, old T’Pol indicated that the reason she pushed Trip away was because of the powerful and frightening emotions he caused her to feel.

So, I don’t take the casual morning after comments at face value, especially since their behavior towards the end seemed ambiguous and as if there was more behind the words. Sure, it made them seem a bit immature, but in a way, that’s consistent with the dancing around feelings and “one step forward, two steps back” pattern that sometimes showed up in their relationship. So, to some degree, that scene itself was a harbinger of what was to come….


Not only that, but it really doesn't fit in with what happened later. Script note about the possibility of them screwing again or not, they didn't for the rest of that season. They only ever started getting comfortable with each other again in The Forgotten and Countdown. We know they stopped doing the VNP. It was just played completely wrong and it came off as really immature. If T'Pol had seemed bothered rather than coy, and Trip had shown that he was hurt and didn't know what to make of it, that would have fit with what came later better. But, I'd rather have had everything played out more maturely to begin with.
I don’t disagree with that. From a continuity standpoint, I’ve been critical myself of the tone of that scene given the trellium storyline that follows.

Regardless, I would’ve expected Trip to be a bit more confused and not suggest “forgetting” the whole thing so readily. And I would’ve expected T’Pol to respond more seriously, although I’m not sure she would’ve been troubled at this point. From her POV, she probably still thought she could control her emotions when needed, and her actions (which seemed deliberate and pre-planned) had achieved the intended result (i.e., drawing Trip’s full attention back to her).

In reality, I think the writers made some mistakes here that they later tried to correct. So when I look at “Harbinger,” I try to interpret the T/T elements in the context what led up to it and came after re: their relationship.



Fortunately I have Foundations for that.
Well, I’ll be curious to see what you come up with. I’ve been following the series, although I think I’m behind one episode right now.
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