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Old October 14 2006, 09:40 AM   #166
Captain Robert April
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

Warped9 said:
^^ Something retractable. Hmm... Now that's an idea I could accept. That works for me.
I've been thinking the same thing.
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Old October 14 2006, 02:04 PM   #167
johnhazard
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

Captain Robert April said:
... I have those pods being deployed from that area just behind the main bridge. The pod trails out from a long, and rather wide, umbilical (picture a four-foot wide dryer hose), enabling more detailed sensor readings from whatever phenomenon is being studied. In the case of an ion storm, the danger is that the turbulence starts to get so severe that there's a danger of the pod either being ripped away or slamming into the ship. This then brings us to the procedure of getting the occupant out of the pod, by sliding down inside the umbilical back into the safety of the ship, so that the pod can be safely jettisoned. (I really need to work up an illustration of this.) What happened in the case of Ben Finney is that after he exited the pod, he jumped right into the nearby turbolift and went into hiding.

The dingleberry is just a directional sensor array, for more detailed sensor readings of a specific target.
Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me- the pods could extend directly into a gaseous phenomenon and take physical samples and pump them back to the ship, though I have a problem with two things:

1) the location of the pods- just behind the bridge. I see no reason for them to be there, besides there being what might be a door there. Like you said, it could smack into the ship in a storm, and the bridge is a pretty vital area, not to mention the warp nacelles, which that pod would be uncomfortably close to.

I think a much better place would be the front of the saucer- those 3 big "windows" you have as an observation lounge/forward sensor array. the pods could come out of there, just like the pod bay in 2001. They wouldn't have to arc over the ship.

Another good location might be somewhere from the bottom of the saucer, or the bottom of the secondary hull.

2) the image of a crewman "sliding down" this 4 ft. wide tube is difficult to picture, and seems a little silly. Also, they couldn't really "slide", since they wouldn't necessarily be going "downhill" relative to the ship, though I guess artificial gravity in the tube could be designed to pull them through.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, just that it just seems a bit weird, but I guess that's science fiction for you. It's hard to reconcile what happened offscreen in Court Martial, and you've done a pretty good job of it (besides the location of the pods IMO).

One question- those 3 "windows" on the front of the saucer- how high and wide are those?
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Old October 14 2006, 06:57 PM   #168
Captain Robert April
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

johnhazard said:Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me- the pods could extend directly into a gaseous phenomenon and take physical samples and pump them back to the ship, though I have a problem with two things:

1) the location of the pods- just behind the bridge. I see no reason for them to be there, besides there being what might be a door there. Like you said, it could smack into the ship in a storm, and the bridge is a pretty vital area, not to mention the warp nacelles, which that pod would be uncomfortably close to.
The pods have reaction control thrusters, so the occupant does have some operational control of the thing while deployed. However, there is a point where those puny thrusters aren't enough and it's easier to just get out of the thing and jettison it.

And, as you said, there appears to be a couple of doors there, so might as well make some use of them.

I think a much better place would be the front of the saucer- those 3 big "windows" you have as an observation lounge/forward sensor array. the pods could come out of there, just like the pod bay in 2001. They wouldn't have to arc over the ship.
That'd be fine if the ship was going backwards through the ion storm. If the ship is going forwards, like it normally would presumably, the pod would be smacked directly into the main hull before you got the first useful reading, either by being ripped from whatever mooring it's attached to, or after it's jettisoned and the ship runs right over it.

Another good location might be somewhere from the bottom of the saucer, or the bottom of the secondary hull.
Maybe, but there's not much on either surface to indicate where something like that would be. At least my version has that upper hatch to play with.

2) the image of a crewman "sliding down" this 4 ft. wide tube is difficult to picture, and seems a little silly. Also, they couldn't really "slide", since they wouldn't necessarily be going "downhill" relative to the ship, though I guess artificial gravity in the tube could be designed to pull them through.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, just that it just seems a bit weird, but I guess that's science fiction for you. It's hard to reconcile what happened offscreen in Court Martial, and you've done a pretty good job of it (besides the location of the pods IMO).
I like to think my version makes more sense than having to jettison an actual part of the ship, like the old Drexler version of using the bump on the lower sensor array.

One question- those 3 "windows" on the front of the saucer- how high and wide are those?
No idea. I'm just eyeballing things at this point, so your estimate is as good as anybody's.
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Old October 14 2006, 11:11 PM   #169
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

every time I see a model of the original Enterprise, though, I see twin phaser banks on the port/starboard sides of the dorsal saucer, and forward phasers on the ventral saucer, just without the yellowish embankment markings. They seem to be 'there', just not clearly marked, on the reproductions I've seen. Personally, the 'everything magically appears from the lower front of the saucer' idea never made sense to me, and I'm glad it stopped with TMP. I'd not mind a bit if some phaser turrets showed up on the new CGI Enterprise similar to those on models we've seen, just so the ship won't seem so woefully underarmed.

James
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Old October 15 2006, 03:52 PM   #170
Forbin
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

The visible phaser banks come strictly from the Franz Joseph plans released in the '70s. It was his idea, and he was the first to show them there. I often include them on my kitbashes, too, but never on the Enterprise herself, because they weren't on the filming miniature we saw on TV.
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Old October 16 2006, 04:01 PM   #171
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

Captain Robert April said:
...If the ship is going forwards, like it normally would presumably, the pod would be smacked directly into the main hull before you got the first useful reading, either by being ripped from whatever mooring it's attached to, or after it's jettisoned and the ship runs right over it...
I thought you made a really good point here... then I thought about it some more, and now I think you may be mistaken!

Let's say the ship is flying through a storm, but NOT ACCELERATING. It could launch the pod, and the pod could fly all around the ship with its little thrusters, no problem, because relative to the pod, the ship wouldn't be moving, even though the ship and the pod were zooming through the storm.

If the ship accelerated, the tethered pod would be slung completely behind the ship like a tail, in which case one would think it would best de moored to the bottom of the secondary hull, or coming right out of the hangar bay.

So basically the ship could never accelerate if the pod is on a flexible tether, unless the plan is to drag the pod behind the ship, which sounds weird, but might actually work. If I remember Court Marshal the ship was accelerating the whole time, so either the pod is dragged or on a rigid mooring.

One other thing- the idea of getting the man out of the pod- it could be done by transporter, rather than having him slide through a long tube.

Not trying to badger, just discuss. You will of course do what makes sense to you on your cool deck plans. Thoughts?
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Old October 17 2006, 06:04 AM   #172
Captain Robert April
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

Ion storms are notorious for playing havoc with transporter systems, so a physical egress system would be preferred.
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Old October 17 2006, 08:50 PM   #173
ancient
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

johnhazard said:
Captain Robert April said:
...If the ship is going forwards, like it normally would presumably, the pod would be smacked directly into the main hull before you got the first useful reading, either by being ripped from whatever mooring it's attached to, or after it's jettisoned and the ship runs right over it...
I thought you made a really good point here... then I thought about it some more, and now I think you may be mistaken!

Let's say the ship is flying through a storm, but NOT ACCELERATING. It could launch the pod, and the pod could fly all around the ship with its little thrusters, no problem, because relative to the pod, the ship wouldn't be moving, even though the ship and the pod were zooming through the storm.
Well, this would be like the old traffic theory.

If you, and all the cars around you are going 100 mph, you are all motionless relative to eachother and manuvering should be easy right?
Many have died testing that theory.

Due to the presence of the storm, there is a frictional force buffeting them and the ship doesn't need to be accelerating. If something is detached from it, it'll get tossed about and destroyed.
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Old October 18 2006, 02:56 AM   #174
JJohnson
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

Just as long as you keep an intermix chamber, and matter/antimatter storage pods, do what you need to do. Will you have quarters for all 430 crewmen?

James
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Old October 18 2006, 03:42 AM   #175
JJohnson
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

Can you do some cutaways for the Venture and some other ships there? Those are really nice starship designs! I'd love to see more views/renders.

James
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Old October 18 2006, 07:50 PM   #176
Captain Robert April
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

Having quarters for all 430 crewmembers is gonna take some chickanery, but suffice it to say that only senior officers have their own cabins. Junior officers have to double up, and the general rabble will probably have to put with around six or eight to a room (a tad cozy, but still a lot better than a modern day aircraft carrier).

As for other ships, we'll see what kind of mood I'm in after putting this thing to bed. I've got some ideas for the refit and the E-A that're bound to piss off plenty of folks, but don't hold your breath on that front.

And wasn't the Venture a Galaxy class ship with just a few extra phaser arrays? The only thing I'd have to do in that case is add the extra banks to Rick Sternbach's plans and call it a day.
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Old October 19 2006, 04:10 PM   #177
Forbin
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

One of the things that bugged me in the Franz Joseph plans was the sheer volume required for individual cabins for 400+ people. Didn't mnake sense to me, and made it seem more like a cruise ship. I'd think the ship would need much more space devoted to machinery, supplies and workspace/labs. I kinda like the (ST:VI?) idea of barracks-style rooms with multi-level bunks for the lowest-ranked crew.
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Old October 19 2006, 06:02 PM   #178
Captain Robert April
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

^ Those bunks are the only way you're gonna fit 430 people into that hull with enough room left over for guest quarters, and of course, all the equipment required for the mission.

What FJ was operating under at that point was Roddenberry's edict in "The Making of Star Trek" that each crewman had his own cabin. A lofty goal, but in the end, highly impracticle, if not impossible, given the size and stated capabiliteis of the ship. I'm trying to at least limit it to no more than six to a room, except for the barracks-type berthing down in the secondary hull, and that has more to do with the unit demands of the engineering crew.

Lemme explain: Every year, when the various armed services go before Congress to request funding, among the items they cite are quartering requirements for personnel. The Air Force asks for enough to give every airman his own room, while the Marines come back with requests for barracks for 20 men. While this is frustrating to the Air Force, since the Marines' request tends to completely undercut the Air Force's request, it all hinges on unit requirements. The Marines live and die as a team, and keeping all their players under the same roof builds that unit cohesiveness that makes for a successful unit (suggested viewing: "Heartbreak Ridge"). The Air Force, not so much. Housing everyone in the same dormitory is good enough.

I'm applying this same principle with regard to the quarters, particularly in contrasting the conidtions in the primary ahd secondary hulls. The crew up top are mostly specialists who don't have to live in the same room in order to function efficiently, whereas down below, the engineering personnel have to function as a team, lest something not get done that should and the whole ship goes *KABOOM!* Putting them all in the same quarters helps build that unit cohesiveness that provides Scotty with the finest engineering staff in the fleet.
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Old October 19 2006, 06:54 PM   #179
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

^That makes a great deal of sense.
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Old October 19 2006, 07:47 PM   #180
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Re: Deck Plans V: The Not-So-Final Go Around

A very interesting and practical take.

I wonder what crew compliment you'd have to get down to to fit everyone in their own quarters?
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