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Old November 18 2008, 06:59 PM   #646
Vektor
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Actually, I never hated it. I mentioned that I was disappointed they decided to move so far away from the original design, but I also said I admired them for their audacity. On the one hand, I would not have done many of the things they did with the new design, but on the other hand, it probably would never have occurred to me to do most of those things. I respect originality and the ability to think outside the box, whether or not I think it was the best approach in this case.

Having seen the trailer, I do think the picture that was released earlier wasn't the best representation of the new design. It looks far better to my eye in the "under construction" scene, for example, and the other glimpses of it are more promising as well. I still think it looks a little cartoony and oddly proportioned, but I'm gradually coming to believe that's more a matter of what I'm used to seeing than anything inherently wrong with the new design.

Does it pass for the original Enterprise? Well, I think that depends on who you ask. Certainly the hardcore fans are keenly aware of the differences, but I've showed it to several friends and acquaintances who are only passingly familiar with Trek and asked how close they thought it looked to what they remember from TOS. A couple said it looked "just like the original." Other responses ranged from "pretty much the same" to "I thought the dish thing was supposed to be orange" to "they definitely spruced it up a little." Nobody I've talked to outside the fan base has found fault with it. "Cool," was the word most often used.

In other words, based on my own anectdotal experience, the vast majority of the audience they are trying to interest in this film is probably going to have no negative issues whatsoever with the redesign of the Enterprise, if they are even aware that it has been redesigned.

For myself, have I totally fallen in love with it like I did the TMP refit, for example? No, but it is growing on me the longer I look at it and become more accustomed to its uniqueness. At this point, I'm more concerned about whatever convolutions or rationalizations they may have tried to work into the story to try to explain it than I am about the design itself.

Guess we'll see in six months or so.
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Old November 18 2008, 08:04 PM   #647
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

I think it looks pretty "retro", which is what I feel they are trying to achieve here. Much of what has come out from many genres is that way... especially the latest cars like the Mustang, Charger, Challenger, and Thunderbird... It looks pretty cool, I think. In a vacuum one isn't bound by design factors like "oversized" or "illproportioned" that much.

How's our favorite ship coming, Jason? Waiting patiently...
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Old November 18 2008, 08:26 PM   #648
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Sorry to missquote you Vektor, I wanted to convery it was quickly as possible. I am happy you were able to come in here and provide your feedback for yourself.

I myself am happy to see the old design go away and a new one replace it. I think i had my mind set it would be like Gregs and didn't consider anything else, so I was a little shocked.

But the Kirks view of it under construction it dosn't look half bad and as you so rightfully pointed out the only people who will care is us.
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Old November 19 2008, 08:59 PM   #649
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Vektor wrote: View Post
Actually, I never hated it. I mentioned that I was disappointed they decided to move so far away from the original design, but I also said I admired them for their audacity. On the one hand, I would not have done many of the things they did with the new design, but on the other hand, it probably would never have occurred to me to do most of those things. I respect originality and the ability to think outside the box, whether or not I think it was the best approach in this case.

Having seen the trailer, I do think the picture that was released earlier wasn't the best representation of the new design. It looks far better to my eye in the "under construction" scene, for example, and the other glimpses of it are more promising as well. I still think it looks a little cartoony and oddly proportioned, but I'm gradually coming to believe that's more a matter of what I'm used to seeing than anything inherently wrong with the new design.

Does it pass for the original Enterprise? Well, I think that depends on who you ask. Certainly the hardcore fans are keenly aware of the differences, but I've showed it to several friends and acquaintances who are only passingly familiar with Trek and asked how close they thought it looked to what they remember from TOS. A couple said it looked "just like the original." Other responses ranged from "pretty much the same" to "I thought the dish thing was supposed to be orange" to "they definitely spruced it up a little." Nobody I've talked to outside the fan base has found fault with it. "Cool," was the word most often used.

In other words, based on my own anectdotal experience, the vast majority of the audience they are trying to interest in this film is probably going to have no negative issues whatsoever with the redesign of the Enterprise, if they are even aware that it has been redesigned.

For myself, have I totally fallen in love with it like I did the TMP refit, for example? No, but it is growing on me the longer I look at it and become more accustomed to its uniqueness. At this point, I'm more concerned about whatever convolutions or rationalizations they may have tried to work into the story to try to explain it than I am about the design itself.

Guess we'll see in six months or so.
Cool.... thanks, Didn't meant to derail your thread. Just must have missed it when you posted your reactions. I had a similar reaction. I'm keeping an open mind myself.
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Old November 20 2008, 12:10 AM   #650
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

So, anything new with the Grandeur? Oh, she's a sexy girl and I think we need to see more.
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Old November 26 2008, 03:56 AM   #651
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Well, I figure I've kept you all in suspense long enough. Time to bring out the big guns!






Please note: These are somewhat preliminary and I may yet have some modifications to make to them. What you see here is not the full cannon assembly, which would extend some ways further back into the saucer, but it's all that's visible from outside the hull.

Also, it occurred to me as I was running these renderings that, quite inadvertantly, I put most of the pieces in place for these things to be aimable. I'm figuring the beams are generated in a linear series of coils and collimators behind the emitters you see in these renderings. The emitters themselves could conceivably pivot slightly, using forcefields or other Trek tech to deflect the beams off-axis in order to hit targets without having to bring the entire ship to bear. By the very nature of these weapons and the sheer power involved, I don't imagine the deflection angle would be very much, maybe 5 degrees, but that would be a huge advantage over them being totally fixed. I may have to make some further tweaks in order to work that in.

I also have some further work to do on the cut-out area around the emitters, some details on either side and so forth.

By the way, these cannons weigh in at about 27,500 faces for the pair. I should be able to cut that at least in half once I freeze the Sub-Ds and start optimizing them. The entire model is now slightly over 400,000 faces but again, I have a lot of Sub-Ds to freeze and a lot of optimizing to do. I'm hoping to keep the final face count under 400,000 for the completed model but we'll see.
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Old November 26 2008, 04:31 AM   #652
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

HOLY SHIT! A NEW POST!



Lovely work as usual, Vektor
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Old November 26 2008, 05:28 AM   #653
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Too phallic for me.
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Old November 26 2008, 06:43 AM   #654
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

WOW thanks Vektor for the great updates. One of a few things that was over due since you had added them on the older model awhile back, but these are so much better

In case not many of you have looked over our specs page these are classified as 2 Wyvern V Anti-Recoil Proto-Cannons, just FYI.
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Old November 26 2008, 08:12 AM   #655
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Holy jumping mother o' God in a side-car with chocolate jimmies and a lobster bib! That looks awesome!
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Old November 26 2008, 08:55 AM   #656
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
Holy jumping mother o' God in a side-car with chocolate jimmies and a lobster bib! That looks awesome!
That sums it all up quite nicely.

Beautiful, Vektor...just beautiful!
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Old November 26 2008, 09:35 AM   #657
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Hi vektor. That is some really clean modeling. May I ask what software you are using, as well as if you are using NURBS (my suspicion) or polygonal modeling? You may have talked about that before, and I apologize if it is a FAQ.
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Old November 26 2008, 10:45 AM   #658
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

^He's using 3D Studio Max, and mix of subdivision, polygonal and spline modeling. IIRC.
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Old November 26 2008, 05:54 PM   #659
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

Cool thanks for the info. Vektor can you confirm and maybe post some wireframes too?
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Old November 26 2008, 06:04 PM   #660
Vektor
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Re: USS Grandeur - One... More... Time!

unklejman wrote: View Post
Hi vektor. That is some really clean modeling. May I ask what software you are using, as well as if you are using NURBS (my suspicion) or polygonal modeling? You may have talked about that before, and I apologize if it is a FAQ.
I'm using 3ds Max 2009. Methods of choice include polygonal modeling with extensive Sub-Ds, lots of spline-based extrusions and lathes, free-form deforms, etc. I have dabbled with NURBS but never enough to become truly proficient with it and haven't used it at all on this model.

This ship falls into a rather unique category in terms of which modeling methods are most suitable for it. Some models, like the original TOS Enterprise, are best constructed with very simple methods like lathes and extrusions, with more advanced techniques used to add the details here and there. For a ship like the Grandeur however, lathes and extrusions are virtually useless for the major shapes. It's organic enough that it's almost like building a character model rather than a mechanical object, but it requires just enough regularity and symmetry that you can't go completely free-form. I suppose it's a lot like modeling a car, though I've never actually done that so I can only speak conceptually.

On the Grandeur, virtually the entire secondary hull and nacelle struts are a single Sub-D object. Same goes for the nacelles themselves. Another single-piece Sub-D is most of the superstructure on top of the saucer, flowing back into the impulse engine housings and around underneath into the various shapes surrounding and in front of the neck section. The saucer itself, believe it or not, was built from a lathed spline, then tweaked into its characteristic egg-shape with a combination of Xform and FFD (Transform and Free-form Deform) modifiers. I did try a couple of times to build it entirely with Sub-Ds, but it turned out to be about the same amount of work to create the basic shape with a lathe and I wound up with a lot fewer faces to boot.

The techniques I use depend entirely on the specific part I'm trying to make. Even then, I can't claim to necessarily be doing it the best way as I am essentially self-taught at all this, which is one of the reason I still don't do much with NURBS.
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