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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old February 10 2015, 08:51 PM   #1
RoJoHen
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No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

Before somebody else sneaks here and posts this...

http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-qua...-universe.html

I just saw this and found it interesting. I admit I am not a quantum physicist, so I definitely don't have a great grasp of the math involved here, but I do find these kinds of things interesting.

The Big Bang relies on the laws of general relativity, which can be used to describe the expansion of the universe. However, prior to the Big Bang, those laws fall apart, and there are things that we've never been able to account for.

Granted, this study also brings up things like "quantum fluid," which seems just as elusive a term as Dark Matter, but I'm no expert. I just thought it was worth sharing.
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Old February 10 2015, 10:09 PM   #2
Silvercrest
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

I'm not a physicist either and don't claim to know the math -- so can't tell from the description if this is significantly different than the Steady State theory proposed by Hoyle and others.

I do know that the Steady State theory has been refuted partly because it predicts certain things that we're just not seeing out there, like quasars that are relatively close to us. I have no idea if this theory predicts anything like that, or resolves the existing issues.
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Old February 10 2015, 10:13 PM   #3
RoJoHen
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

I just don't know what's more difficult to wrap my head around: a universe that has existed forever, or a universe that had a beginning (because what was here BEFORE the universe?).
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Old February 10 2015, 10:17 PM   #4
Silvercrest
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

For the latter, I tend to default to the answer "the previous loop" like a lot of s.f. does.

But really that doesn't help much.
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Old February 10 2015, 10:19 PM   #5
RoJoHen
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

Wouldn't that just be another version of "forever?"
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Old February 10 2015, 10:35 PM   #6
Silvercrest
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

Not really. In that model, the universe has a definite start and a definite end. And then a definite restart.

Whether the "loop" process continues forever is a different question.
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Old February 10 2015, 10:46 PM   #7
scotthm
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

Here is a little different take on the model referred to in the OP:

The new study isn’t suggesting there was no Big Bang, Koberlein says. It’s suggesting that the Big Bang did not start with a singularity – a point in space-time when matter is infinitely dense, as at the center of a black hole.
Link

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Old February 10 2015, 11:43 PM   #8
Wereghost
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

It's food for thought. I'm wondering what the theory says about black holes and if it eliminates singularities completely; if not, then isn't it a statistical certainty that the universe will eventually become a singularity? (Edit: I'm also wondering if, through a Unified Force Singularity or otherwise, the theory allows for the laws of physics to be inconstant.)

If the theory proves robust and becomes the orthodoxy, then it could have profound philosophical implications. Depending on the scope of the universe's permutations, it could mean an alternative to, or effective duplication of, the Many Worlds Hypothesis (as there might be infinite similar versions of the current universe in the past and future). It would lead to profound nihilism in some ("After an infinite amount of time, this is what the universe amounts to?") and a certain existential and epistemological issue for others ("Does the lack of a beginning imply the lack of a Creator?").
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Last edited by Wereghost; February 11 2015 at 12:33 AM.
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Old February 11 2015, 12:22 AM   #9
J. Allen
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

scotthm wrote: View Post
Here is a little different take on the model referred to in the OP:

The new study isn’t suggesting there was no Big Bang, Koberlein says. It’s suggesting that the Big Bang did not start with a singularity – a point in space-time when matter is infinitely dense, as at the center of a black hole.
Link

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This. One of the head researchers is saying the origin point is being discussed, not the Big Bang model itself:

http://www.hngn.com/articles/68295/2...t-the-case.htm
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Old February 11 2015, 02:06 AM   #10
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
I do know that the Steady State theory has been refuted—
Which Steady State? There's more than one, just as there are many variations under the name "Big Bang."

—partly because it predicts certain things that we're just not seeing out there, like quasars that are relatively close to us.
I guess the name Halton Arp isn't ringing any bells?

(Cue "No. Just, no." in 3...2...1...)
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Old February 11 2015, 02:53 AM   #11
Silvercrest
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

<vader> NOOOOOOOO <vader>
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Old February 11 2015, 05:13 AM   #12
bigdaddy
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
I just don't know what's more difficult to wrap my head around: a universe that has existed forever, or a universe that had a beginning (because what was here BEFORE the universe?).
That's like saying "What was the world....?" before you were born. The universe always being around makes no sense to me. I like the Futurama version of the universe, it just keeps redoing itself. Clearly that isn't based on anything scientific.
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Old February 11 2015, 06:53 AM   #13
Dryson
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
I just don't know what's more difficult to wrap my head around: a universe that has existed forever, or a universe that had a beginning (because what was here BEFORE the universe?).
That's like saying "What was the world....?" before you were born. The universe always being around makes no sense to me. I like the Futurama version of the universe, it just keeps redoing itself. Clearly that isn't based on anything scientific.

That it most likely correct but with everything that keeps redoing itself there has to be a point at which that which keeps redoing itself had initial state of doing, just like that point had an initial state of doing.

The problem with thinking about what occurred before the Big Bang is because Einstein's theories don't exist. Therefore new theories have to be thought of....Its just that simple.
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Old February 11 2015, 07:38 AM   #14
Timelord Victorious
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

Warning: layman's baseless blabbering following

What is the problem again with we don't know what happened until really, really, really shortly after the Big Bang?

If we assume that the early expansion of the universe was a singularity, it was not only a spatial singularity, it was a temporal singularity as well.

The way I understand it, that there is no definitive starting point.
A beginning presupposes a change of state from something to something else. Since there never was any existance before the universe there can not have been a change of state.

And yet there is no further past beyond the Big Bang. It's just that the concept of a past gets fuzzier and fuzzier the closer we get to it.

That means there is no boundary to time, but the past is still finite.
You can never get to it, you can only get closer and closer, with each step toward it getting smaller and smaller.

Do I sound like dryson now? I can't explain better what I mean.
Damn language limitations!
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Old February 11 2015, 07:43 AM   #15
Taelon
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Re: No Big Bang: Universe existed FOREVER!

Something like an asymptote?
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