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Old December 20 2014, 08:47 PM   #1
Kobayshi Maru
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Shattered...

Seska says that she realized that Chakotay was from the future because he mumbled "Five years ago" when he came to (what a stupid thing to mumble when you're in the presence of such a clever and implacable enemy btw!) but given that she left Chakotay and the entire ship's crew on a barren planet with no technology at all ("let's see how you manage without it" said... Seska's lover whatever his name was) she could at least have realized that something went terribly wrong in her plan REGARDLESS of what Chakotay might have said.


Food for thought...
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Old December 20 2014, 09:37 PM   #2
hux
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Re: Shattered...

Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
Seska says that she realized that Chakotay was from the future because he mumbled "Five years ago" when he came to (what a stupid thing to mumble when you're in the presence of such a clever and implacable enemy btw!)
But surely Chakatay had no choice. I mean everyone knows you can't think things without also saying them out loud. Many a time i've got myself into trouble for saying to my manager..."you're a fucking fat cow"....because it's what i was thinking. Maybe in some parallel universe people can think things without also saying them....but not sadly, in this one

Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
but given that she left Chakotay and the entire ship's crew on a barren planet with no technology at all ("let's see how you manage without it" said... Seska's lover whatever his name was) she could at least have realized that something went terribly wrong in her plan REGARDLESS of what Chakotay might have said.
I was under the impression that the events of Shattered were wiped clean by the end of the episode (an idea they should have used more often in Voyager) so in the end, Seska never actually encountered Chakotay from 5 years in the future
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Last edited by hux; December 20 2014 at 09:52 PM.
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Old December 20 2014, 10:01 PM   #3
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Re: Shattered...

Realising that "they" lost and that the crew of Voyager won.

Ditto for full Borg Seven of Nine still loyal to the Collective.

They only way that that was possible was is if Borg Betrayal was not inevitable but just something the Borg might have resorted to if the Humans (and friends) had been especially assholey near the end of their adventure.
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Old December 20 2014, 10:13 PM   #4
Kobayshi Maru
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Re: Shattered...

hux wrote: View Post
Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
Seska says that she realized that Chakotay was from the future because he mumbled "Five years ago" when he came to (what a stupid thing to mumble when you're in the presence of such a clever and implacable enemy btw!)
But surely Chakatay had no choice. I mean everyone knows you can't think things without also saying them out loud. Many a time i've got myself into trouble for saying to my manager..."you're a fucking fat cow"....because it's what i was thinking. Maybe in some parallel universe people can think things without also saying them....but not sadly, in this one

Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
but given that she left Chakotay and the entire ship's crew on a barren planet with no technology at all ("let's see how you manage without it" said... Seska's lover whatever his name was) she could at least have realized that something went terribly wrong in her plan REGARDLESS of what Chakotay might have said.
I was under the impression that the events of Shattered were wiped clean by the end of the episode (an idea they should have used more often in Voyager) so in the end, Seska never actually encountered Chakotay from 5 years in the future
No, I mean the instant she saw Chakotay she must have realized that something was very wrong given that he was supposed to be struggling on a barren planet with no technology. I mean, how did he manage to get back on the ship unless he escaped from that planet with outside help. That should have worried her exactly one sec after she saw him, even before he was hit in the face and lost consciousness.
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Old December 20 2014, 10:14 PM   #5
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Re: Shattered...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Realising that "they" lost and that the crew of Voyager won.

Ditto for full Borg Seven of Nine still loyal to the Collective.

They only way that that was possible was is if Borg Betrayal was not inevitable but just something the Borg might have resorted to if the Humans (and friends) had been especially assholey near the end of their adventure.
All true.
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Old December 20 2014, 10:27 PM   #6
hux
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Re: Shattered...

Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
No, I mean the instant she saw Chakotay she must have realized that something was very wrong given that he was supposed to be struggling on a barren planet with no technology. I mean, how did he manage to get back on the ship unless he escaped from that planet with outside help. That should have worried her exactly one sec after she saw him, even before he was hit in the face and lost consciousness.
I'm not sure how long Seska et al had been in control having dumped the Voyager crew but in space anything can happen so she might just have thought he'd found a way back (via wormhole, alien ship, secretly got back on board before they left etc)

Didn't the Borg suggest amending the plan to benefit their time line at one point
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Old December 20 2014, 10:39 PM   #7
Guy Gardener
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Re: Shattered...

The math didn't hold.

Seriously though.

They all agreed to commit suicide, or allow themselves to be murdered so that 2376(?) Chakotay could have their crew back.

Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!

That must have cleared him of any built up festering resentment towards the lady when he got back to his own ship.
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Old December 21 2014, 06:16 AM   #8
Kobayshi Maru
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Re: Shattered...

hux wrote: View Post
Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
No, I mean the instant she saw Chakotay she must have realized that something was very wrong given that he was supposed to be struggling on a barren planet with no technology. I mean, how did he manage to get back on the ship unless he escaped from that planet with outside help. That should have worried her exactly one sec after she saw him, even before he was hit in the face and lost consciousness.
I'm not sure how long Seska et al had been in control having dumped the Voyager crew but in space anything can happen so she might just have thought he'd found a way back (via wormhole, alien ship, secretly got back on board before they left etc)

Didn't the Borg suggest amending the plan to benefit their time line at one point
No, she said that if she assimilated janeway and Chakotay into a small borg collective then the work could go faster. it was just for practical purposes.
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Old December 21 2014, 06:21 AM   #9
Kobayshi Maru
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Re: Shattered...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The math didn't hold.

Seriously though.

They all agreed to commit suicide, or allow themselves to be murdered so that 2376(?) Chakotay could have their crew back.

Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!

That must have cleared him of any built up festering resentment towards the lady when he got back to his own ship.
The funny thing is that when Seska made janeway a hostage Chakotay should have realized that it didn't matter because all of it would be erased and yet he let seska almost derail their plan. That wasn't very smart of him, was it?
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Old December 21 2014, 06:24 AM   #10
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Re: Shattered...

Seska was the one who wanted to reset things to her timeline.
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Old December 21 2014, 06:26 AM   #11
Kobayshi Maru
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Re: Shattered...

Ho Ho Homeier wrote: View Post
Seska was the one who wanted to reset things to her timeline.
Indeed, Seven wanted to be helpful, in her own way.
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Old December 24 2014, 03:50 PM   #12
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Re: Shattered...

My favorite part of this episode was Janeway's increasing reaction to seeing how difficult her future will be. Chakotay's speech at the end was wonderful.
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Old January 2 2015, 03:37 AM   #13
spacemark
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Re: Shattered...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The math didn't hold.
Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!
No, remember at the very end, Janeway mentioned to Chakotay that she knew where he had hidden his cider, and that she had not revealed the secret to Neelix? She learned this as Season 1 Janeway during the time shattering from 17-year older Icheb. In other words, the other timelines were not destroyed.

In truth it's a bit confusing...
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Old January 2 2015, 06:01 AM   #14
Kobayshi Maru
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Re: Shattered...

spacemark wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The math didn't hold.
Chakotay murdered season one Janeway!
No, remember at the very end, Janeway mentioned to Chakotay that she knew where he had hidden his cider, and that she had not revealed the secret to Neelix? She learned this as Season 1 Janeway during the time shattering from 17-year older Icheb. In other words, the other timelines were not destroyed.

In truth it's a bit confusing...
The cider story doesn't hold water. If Chakotay died immediately after telling Icheb about the cider then keeping it a secret was pointless, if he didn't die at that time then why would Icheb remember this precise conversation seventeen years later as if it was the last one they had? That's the kind of crap that only looks good when you don't think about it.
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Old January 6 2015, 05:27 AM   #15
Lt. Marseille
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Re: Shattered...

Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
The cider story doesn't hold water. If Chakotay died immediately after telling Icheb about the cider then keeping it a secret was pointless, if he didn't die at that time then why would Icheb remember this precise conversation seventeen years later as if it was the last one they had? That's the kind of crap that only looks good when you don't think about it.
Perhaps what Icheb means is that he kept Chakotay's secret and hasn't told anyone else? In other words he's been drinking all the cider in the meantime.

From Icheb and Naomi's POV Chakotay certainly died immediately because the ship's been stuck in the crazy time trap ever since. All of the rest of the ship outside their 'zone' was destroyed from their perspective.

btw, didn't Ceska immediately start interrogating Chakotay about how many others had managed to get on board with him so she did think something had gone wrong with her plan and was asking the right questions.
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