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Fan Art Post your Trek fan art here, including hobby models and collectibles.

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Old December 8 2005, 03:32 AM   #1
Ptrope
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A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comment

This forum has endured needless and incomprehensible strife in the past month, largely as the result of a feud - I can find no better term to describe it - between less than a handful of its members. This has resulted in no fewer than five warnings being issued, and worse, it has seriously disrupted the harmony and sense of fun that we normally enjoy here on a regular basis. Not to mention reflecting very poorly on this forum and its members.

Further, this rancor has spilled over onto the quasi-regular TrekArt Challenge, an institution implemented not by the administration of this forum, but by its members and intended for its members as a way to cooperate and compete in a spirit of fun. Now, that fun is in serious jeopardy as accusations and counteraccusations fly about the legitimacy of the current challenge, both as an event and through its application of rules.

This thread is not a place to continue those arguments and accusations! Anyone attempting to do so will earn an immediate trolling warning. You have been notified.

What this thread is for is to review the efforts and effects of these monthly challenges, and to reach a consensus on whether it is necessary to implement moderator-supervised review of challenges before they are presented to the forum. We can discuss the issue that some feel that some challenges may or may not be "exclusionary," in that they rule out individuals' participation based upon those individuals' perceptions of their own abilities or interests, or that for budgetary reasons they may exclude members who cannot afford materials specified by the rules.

Because this is to be a discussion, and an attempt to solicit suggestions, I don't expect that I have covered all the bases here that some individuals feel need to be addressed. Don't be shy in posting your thoughts, but do be civil, and remember that your opinion is just that: an opinion. No one has any more rights here than any other; no one is due any more nor any less respect than any other. If you can't maintain a civil, rational tone, you will be asked to leave, or, if in violation of board rules, you will be dealt with appropriately. I say this because I'm frankly tired of the behavior that has erupted here lately - this has not been TrekArt's proudest hour.

- Ptrope

------

Before the discussion begins, I would like to make one suggestion for a change in future rules:

Because we hope to create a calendar for the board, most likely in terms of wallpapers at standard screen resolutions, I think it would be a good idea for challenge entries to be a minimum size, which we can determine through discussion, but I would recommend at least 1024 x 1024, if not larger, so that wallpapers for high resolutions can present the artwork at its best, and not require images to be 'blown up' and degraded to make them fit.
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Old December 8 2005, 03:54 AM   #2
Temis the Vorta
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

I think it would be a good idea for challenge entries to be a minimum size, which we can determine through discussion, but I would recommend at least 1024 x 1024, if not larger, so that wallpapers for high resolutions can present the artwork at its best, and not require images to be 'blown up' and degraded to make them fit.
Just FYI, anything I've done can be resized to 1024 x 1024 (or whatever makes sense for the dimensions, if not square) without degrading the image, even if what I submitted was smaller (which I usually do because I don't know how large people's monitors are...?) I can just go back to the original Illustrator image and re-export it into JPEG format at a larger size.

My only other comment is that if people are registering duals or roping in their friends (who aren't already TrekBBS members) to vote on a contest, it would be best to put a stop to that. Requiring people have 100 posts, for instance.

I'm happy to leave the topic up to the winner of the poll, regardless of how exclusionary it might be.
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Old December 8 2005, 05:06 AM   #3
Masao
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comment

I certainly don't want to see the Feds come in and start running the contests. Such oversight wasn't necessary until this contest and, if certain people decide to behave themselves after being warned, won't be needed in the future. Trouble always start when people get the fool idea into their heads that WINNING this piddling little contest is somehow important. It would be better if there didn't have to be a winner, but without winners there'd be no contest. The point is to ENTER and have fun.

All contests naturally exclude someone, either by termperment, interest, or skill. I think that by requiring contests to include artists of every conceivable medium we'll end up killing this thing. I say "no."

I'm kind of torn about the minimum-posts requirement. The Jeffersonian in me wishes that no one would try to recruit friends to pad their vote, but the Nixonian recognizes that darkness and evil lie in the hearts of all men. If we do set a bar, make it fairly low and perhaps based on time rather than number of posts. For example, one must have registered at least 24 hours before the start of voting.
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Old December 8 2005, 05:07 AM   #4
Klaus
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

I make nearly all of my big pieces 1024x768 as that's the res I run my desktop at and I like to use them as wallpaper... but making them square is easy enough, via letterboxing if it can't be square for some overwhelming esthetic reason.
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Old December 8 2005, 05:11 AM   #5
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

I want to say that I really respect how Ptrope and T'Bonz are handling this issue. I know in the vast scheme of things it's unimportant, but I love coming to the TrekBBS because... I love Star Trek. Most of the threads are of interest to me, and the artwork at Trek Art is inventive and inspiring. I like seeing the Enterprise soar through space courtesy of all you. I just think that in the context of the art challenges, the medium used should not be left up to the designer of the challenge. I have no vested interest in this because quite frankly I have never entered, and only vote occasionaly. As an outside observer, I noticed what happened last month and thought it was pretty creepy when reading the rules for this month's challenge. I think everyone here is super talented, but a simple rule of thumb that all forms of artistic expression be allowed across the board in a challenge doesn't seem unreasonable. I think the open nature of winner gets to pick the challenge was taken advantage of. Not the end of the world, but i call it like i see it.
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Old December 8 2005, 05:16 AM   #6
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comment

I for one certainly hope that it won't come to having montly challenge topics pre-screened by board staff. That opinion is not intended in anyway to reflect poorly on said staff, I just simply see that as an uneccesary evolution (de-evolution?) that would take them away from what I feel they originally we're intended to be. That being an unofficial venue for the members to have some fun being creative. No hard and fast rules save within each month's challenge.

Questions have always been raised about the particulars of any one challenge. People have sat them out for a variety of reasons. Nothing runs smoothly when dealing with people of various likes, talents, opinions, and egos. It's been proved time and again that you simply can not legislate (if I may be permitted to bend that term for my purposes here) good behaviour. Operating rules or none, officiation or none, things will be as they will be. People will behave as they will behave. And from time to time we will have situations like we've seen recently (just as we've seen them in the past). The only difference would be a set of official rules that fall into question or become the target of discussion or argument just like the challenge specific rules can, have and will again.

Maybe all that makes no sense but either way there it is.
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Old December 8 2005, 05:25 AM   #7
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by 22 Stars:
I think the open nature of winner gets to pick the challenge was taken advantage of.
I'd agree with that, but the light and heat expended over it was way out of proportion... Finding out that the power of someone to define the contest needs some basic paramters is not a bad thing if it comes to that, that's how rules get defined in everything, by discovering the limits people don't want to go beyond. I think a CGI render of an ornament wouldn't be a bad thing -- I'd probably have gone that route if it'd been allowed -- but it'll be fun to whittle Rice Krispie squares too, so I don't really mind. I don't care about the individual issues anywhere near as much as the tone of the debate...
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Old December 8 2005, 05:53 AM   #8
Masao
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by 22 Stars:
I just think that in the context of the art challenges, the medium used should not be left up to the designer of the challenge. ....I think everyone here is super talented, but a simple rule of thumb that all forms of artistic expression be allowed across the board in a challenge doesn't seem unreasonable. I think the open nature of winner gets to pick the challenge was taken advantage of.
A few comments if I may. As far as I can recall, this is the first contest won by a physical piece of artwork rather than a digital drawing or a render. Also, I can't recall any winners that were hand-drawn. Have any of the contest explicitly excluded such media? No, but perhaps the very nature of the contest excludes them. Past contests have included book covers, movie posters, and animated Trek, which don't exactly make things easy for a non-digital artist to complete on a level field. Or maybe a physical piece usually takes longer to complete than the one-month duration of the contest. I think medium is not the factor limiting entries for most contests; instead people choose to enter or not enter because of the subject matter. Very few people enter every contest. If some people don't feel they have a good chance in a particular contest because of their chosen medium, there's always next month.

I'm okay with this month's contest requiring a physical object. I'm willing to cut the winner a bit of slack here. Was the "prize" of choosing the next contest abused here? Maybe, but only if the winner wanted to ensure that he would have an advantage in the next contest. I don't believe that's the case. I haven't won any contests, but I suggested an idea that Kail used (the advertisement contest). I suggested a contest that would allow graphic artists and copywriters to have a good chance and to create the kind of thing that I enjoy seeing. I didn't enter, however. Was there ever a case of someone winning a contest that he (or she) chose?
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Old December 8 2005, 06:04 AM   #9
22 Stars
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

I wasn't implying that the nature of the new contest was chosen to give anyone an advantage, but to intentionally make less welcome those who prefer 2d or simulated 3d art. I am merely using my reasoning powers to come to this unprovable conclusion. BTW I loved the challenge wit the trek ads. I don't remember if it was specifically print ads that could enter, i assume that if i had made a 15 sec. spot for Ronco Tribble Hair Restorer it would have been a valid entry.
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Old December 8 2005, 06:07 AM   #10
dogsowar
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Play nice people.
I've only ever entered one contest, due to my limited time and talent. Of course I didn't win, nor did I expect to, due to the huge talents on this board. I just did it for the fun of creating and participating.
You're not going to win fame fortune or sex by winning the contest, it's just for fun.
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Old December 8 2005, 06:12 AM   #11
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by 22 Stars:
I don't remember if it was specifically print ads that could enter, i assume that if i had made a 15 sec. spot for Ronco Tribble Hair Restorer it would have been a valid entry.
It was specifically print ads. The kind you used to see in comic books and was incorporated in Kail's comic here. It's actually a pretty good example of why limits and parameters can be useful.
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Old December 8 2005, 06:19 AM   #12
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Masao-
You stated yourself really well there on all points. I couldn't agree more!
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Old December 8 2005, 06:31 AM   #13
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by BJensen:
Posted by 22 Stars:
I don't remember if it was specifically print ads that could enter, i assume that if i had made a 15 sec. spot for Ronco Tribble Hair Restorer it would have been a valid entry.
It was specifically print ads. The kind you used to see in comic books and was incorporated in Kail's comic here. It's actually a pretty good example of why limits and parameters can be useful.
I remember them used in Kails comic, that was great. I see your point, and I suppose the harm in allowing other forms of ads in that contest would have been comparing apples to oranges making it a tough contest to judge. I just see a difference in the limits placed this month. They seemed arbitrary and spiteful, but that's human nature. I just never saw that here before.
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Old December 8 2005, 06:47 AM   #14
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Personally, I'm of the opinion that since there's nothing at stake besides bragging rights, I think it's OK for a contest to be specific on the required entries. I mean, if someone really wants to make something that's related to what the contest is but doesn't quite fit the parameters, that's certainly within their rights to do. Heck, I've done two images myself that were related to an art contest that didn't qualify for one reason or the other. The important part was just putting them up for other people to enjoy, not getting picked in the list.

If someone comes up with a really crappy contest idea, then nobody will enter the contest and that'll be that for that particular month. People can still produce Trek Art, and people can still ask other people for suggestions on projects if they've got artist's block. (Incidently, there seem to be quite a few entries already for this current contest regardless of how "restrictive" the rules seem.)

And really, people can still post a thread calling for a "contest that's not a contest," IE just saying, "I had this idea about what a pre-warp Andorian ship might've looked like, what does everyone else think they looked like?" People make their own interpretation, just no bragging rights. A great actual example of this was when Professor Moriarty was going through Doomsday Machine designs. That wasn't officially sanctioned as a "contest," but tons of people weighed in with their own designs and input.

So I think it's ok to be specific in what you want other people to make for the next contest. You earned the right to pick, and it's not like anyone HAS to enter, or like no one else can suggest a caucus of visual ideas. It's just that the other threads won't get stickied.
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Old December 8 2005, 06:49 AM   #15
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Re: A Challenge For Everyone - Please Read & Comme

Posted by 22 Stars:
Posted by BJensen:
Posted by 22 Stars:
I don't remember if it was specifically print ads that could enter, i assume that if i had made a 15 sec. spot for Ronco Tribble Hair Restorer it would have been a valid entry.
It was specifically print ads. The kind you used to see in comic books and was incorporated in Kail's comic here. It's actually a pretty good example of why limits and parameters can be useful.
I remember them used in Kails comic, that was great. I see your point, and I suppose the harm in allowing other forms of ads in that contest would have been comparing apples to oranges making it a tough contest to judge. I just see a difference in the limits placed this month. They seemed arbitrary and spiteful, but that's human nature. I just never saw that here before.
Hmmm- how to address this without overly focusing on this months controversy?



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This month we've been presented with making an ornament. Not a picture of one. I thought it quite clever. (The issue of motive may be suitable for another thread.)
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