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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old August 20 2003, 05:16 PM   #31
David Henderson
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Re: Are there any canon books?

'The problem I have with it is the fact that Enterprise is most definitely not canon, despite being "official".'

Are you saying that Brannon Braga and Rick Berman don't consider Enterprise to be valid source material when they make Enterprise? That doesn't make any sense. I think you are inventing some brand new word out of thin air and as a remarkable coincidence spelling it "canon".

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Old August 20 2003, 05:24 PM   #32
8-4-7-2
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by NAHTMMM:
canonicity (Just for the record, I may have made that word up)
Nope. It's correct
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Old August 20 2003, 07:44 PM   #33
23skidoo
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by James Dixon:
The problem I have with it is the fact that Enterprise is most definitely not canon, despite being "official"... The whole deal is like a sad joke on the part of TOS fans...

This makes no sense, and I have yet to see anyone give definitive proof that Enterprise cannot be canon.

The fact we don't see an NX-01 illustration in TMP or TNG is not, in my opinion, proof.

Nor is the often-misquoted dialog from Will Decker in TMP.

Anything based on Fanon conjectures -- or (and James will appreciate this) conjectures in the Chronology/Encyclopedia is likewise not proof.

And we need to identify what is an oversight or a writing error. Remember that DS9 -- which very few here would dare to call not canon -- said clearly that the Eugenics Wars happened in the late 21st Century, rather than the 1990s, due to a writer error in one episode.

Cheers

Alex
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Old August 20 2003, 10:45 PM   #34
TrekGuide.com
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Re: Are there any canon books?

In many discussions, people are confusing the terms "canon," "continuity," and "quality." These three terms have NOTHING to do with one another, and their mingling together in the same discussion is far too often abused.

"Canon" -- What has been shown in any and every Trek episode, regardless of quality or continuity. As opposed to "non-canon," which means derivative works such as books, comics, and games.

"Continuity" -- When one episode makes reference to facts established in another episode. ALL episodes are canon, so that is not a factor in determining continuity. There are numerous continuity errors in all canon episodes, from 1966 to today. No series has a monopoly on continuity errors.

"Quality" -- This is a subjective judgment, whether you personally like an episode, actor, or entire season of episodes. This rarely has anything to do with either "canon" or "continuity." People just love some episodes, whether or not they have continuity errors, and people just hate other episodes, whether or not they have continuity errors. The only difference is, people tend to expend more energy nitpicking continuity errors in the canon episodes they hate, while ignoring the errors in the episodes they love.

Let's try to keep these terms straight. Continuity clearly does not determine quality ("Enterprise" has far fewer continuity errors than any other Trek series, regardless of its "quality"), and quality certainly does not define canon ("SPOCK'S BRAIN" and "The Best of Both Worlds" are BOTH canon, as is every episode of "Enterprise").

Some books may have great quality and continuity, but they're still non-canon.
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Old August 24 2003, 04:37 PM   #35
Captain Robert April
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Ron Moore admitted that the line on DS9 was an error, so I rate that one in the same category as Admiral Morrow's "the Enterprise is twenty years old" line in ST III, a non-binding slip of the tongue on the part of the character.
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Old August 25 2003, 01:13 AM   #36
tafkats
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by Blake:
Gene Roddenberry's excellent Star Trek The Motion Picture novel is canon.

Personally, I hated that novel. Thought it was the dullest, most pedantic piece of crap I've ever seen the "Star Trek" name on.

Speaking of excellent novels that totally contradict the shows, Diane Carey's "Final Frontier" is a perfect example in that there's no way it and the show "Enterprise" could both exist in the same universe ... but that doesn't stop me from picking up the book after an episode of ENT and still thoroughly enjoying both.

(Interestingly, though, BOTH feature a British-accented security lieutenant named Reed...)
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Old August 25 2003, 01:47 AM   #37
James Dixon
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by 23skidoo:
And we need to identify what is an oversight or a writing error. Remember that DS9 -- which very few here would dare to call not canon -- said clearly that the Eugenics Wars happened in the late 21st Century, rather than the 1990s, due to a writer error in one episode.

That's right, and the problem with Enterprise is that every episode has both, oversights And writing errors...

Call it a two-time loser...

There's just no way that E can peacefully coexist with TOS...
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Old August 25 2003, 09:05 PM   #38
AlexR
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Location: North Brunswick, NJ, USA
Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by James Dixon:
Posted by 23skidoo:
And we need to identify what is an oversight or a writing error. Remember that DS9 -- which very few here would dare to call not canon -- said clearly that the Eugenics Wars happened in the late 21st Century, rather than the 1990s, due to a writer error in one episode.

That's right, and the problem with Enterprise is that every episode has both, oversights And writing errors...

Call it a two-time loser...

There's just no way that E can peacefully coexist with TOS...
ENT is still way ahead of a couple of its latter-era counterparts in minimizing both oversights and writing errors, at least insofar as correlating with filmed TOS is concerned.

I find no difficulties at all with the two series coexisting.

Now, if I were to be hanging onto every fan-created preconception about the 22nd Century built up over the past 3 decades, well, then yeah, ENT has problems. Fortunately for me, I'm not.

Best,
Alex
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Old August 25 2003, 09:12 PM   #39
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by AlexR:
I find no difficulties at all with the two series coexisting.

Now, if I were to be hanging onto every fan-created preconception about the 22nd Century built up over the past 3 decades, well, then yeah, ENT has problems. Fortunately for me, I'm not.

Agreed on both counts.
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Old August 27 2003, 03:16 PM   #40
suzi
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Location: Houston, TX
Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by Steve Roby:
Posted by TerriO:
Steve, can I PLEASE quote this elsewhere with appropriate linkage and credit? This is brilliant.
Certainly, and thanks to you and the other folks who said nice things about it.

And if Suzi is still reading this thread: Suzi, I hope you didn't read my little rant as anything personally directed against you. I'm guessing you're relatively new to this ancient debate. Every time it comes up there are a few folks who haven't seen this old battle play out dozens of times over the years, and the exasperation some of us feel whenever it rears its ugly head again may seem a little harsh to the newer fans. Trust me, no matter where you stand on the issue, in a few years you too will be exasperated when the subject arises again.

And Defcon cuts to the heart of the matter. The Final Reflection, Diane Duane's Romulan books, Federation... it doesn't matter that canon Trek may have contradicted them. They're still well worth reading.
Hi, im abit surprised my thread got 38 answers i only looked at it once when it had three. No hard feelings or anything.
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Old December 1 2005, 07:09 PM   #41
RookieBatman
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Posted by Steve Roby:
EVERY FAN'S CANON PRIMER

Hey Steve, I just wanted to say that I really love this post! :thumbsup:
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Old December 1 2005, 08:28 PM   #42
Steve Roby
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Re: Are there any canon books?

Thanks. I thought I was sick and tired of canon thrashes two years ago, but the relevance of my little rant seems unlikely to diminish any time soon.
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Old December 2 2005, 05:22 AM   #43
Aatrek
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Re: Are there any canon books?

RookieBatman, I can't believe you bumped a two-year-old thread.
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