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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 24 2014, 04:24 AM   #16
Nightowl1701
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
As another aside I find it difficult to believe that Uhura had to give up her 'palatial' cabin for Elaan. in 'Journey to Babel' they had 100 ambassadors on board. Where did they put them?
Never said in the episode she had to give her quarters up.

ELAAN: Am I a soft Troyian fawn to need pillows to sit on? And these ridiculous female trappings. They are an offense to my eyes.
KIRK: My communications officer generously vacated the rooms hoping you would find it satisfactory.

Uhura was clearly thinking a woman's touch would soothe the savage Elasian breast (and she could enjoy the swanky ambassadorial suite Elaan would otherwise have gotten in the meantime).
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Old August 24 2014, 04:30 AM   #17
Terran_Empire
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

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The occasional insightful (and usually heavy handed) Trekkie Feminist wrote this review of the episode. Her reviews are often unintentionally funny.
That review encapsulates pretty much everything that is wrong with new wave feminism, from the pervasive sense of entitlement to making a victim of a female character who is intentionally depicted as severely flawed, so much so that she tries to kill a diplomat that only wants to facilitate peace, and right down to excusing violence against men but condemning men (Kirk) when the courtesy of a slap in the face is returned.

Elaan acts as if she is running the show, threatening anyone and everyone around her with death and violence when they only want to assist her in forming a peace treaty that would save her people. She has no consideration for those around her, what they want and desire, much less what is good for her people. More over she is continually unable to accept the responsibilities and duty that comes with her title and yet somehow she is a victim in all of this? If the "Dohlman" was a man with the same personality traits and display of behavior would he have been given such a generous benefit of a doubt? I think not.

Kind of makes you think that some fans or "trekkies" really let the soul and message of the series fly right over their heads.
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Old August 24 2014, 01:02 PM   #18
Commishsleer
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

Terran_Empire wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
The occasional insightful (and usually heavy handed) Trekkie Feminist wrote this review of the episode. Her reviews are often unintentionally funny.
That review encapsulates pretty much everything that is wrong with new wave feminism, from the pervasive sense of entitlement to making a victim of a female character who is intentionally depicted as severely flawed, so much so that she tries to kill a diplomat that only wants to facilitate peace, and right down to excusing violence against men but condemning men (Kirk) when the courtesy of a slap in the face is returned.

Elaan acts as if she is running the show, threatening anyone and everyone around her with death and violence when they only want to assist her in forming a peace treaty that would save her people. She has no consideration for those around her, what they want and desire, much less what is good for her people. More over she is continually unable to accept the responsibilities and duty that comes with her title and yet somehow she is a victim in all of this? If the "Dohlman" was a man with the same personality traits and display of behavior would he have been given such a generous benefit of a doubt? I think not.

Kind of makes you think that some fans or "trekkies" really let the soul and message of the series fly right over their heads.
Yes in an enlightened Federation women should still be polite and be 'good little girls' and accept being married to someone they don't want to for the next 50 years.
Women in poor countries today marry older Western men for much lesser rewards.

Hey I know they were still doing it 100 years later in TNG so its gotta be OK.

And if the Dohlman was a man I don't think Kirk would be talking down to and spanking the guy. Or showing him how to eat.
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Old August 24 2014, 01:30 PM   #19
EnriqueH
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

I thought Kirk's behavior in Elaan was consistent with the way he was portrayed in the past.

In fact, we've seen Kirk try to teach a man how to behave: in Charlie X.

Boy, was he a little shit or what? Talk about a sense of entitlement.
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Old August 24 2014, 01:37 PM   #20
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

EnriqueH wrote: View Post
I thought Kirk's behavior in Elaan was consistent with the way he was portrayed in the past.

In fact, we've seen Kirk try to teach a man how to behave: in Charlie X.

Boy, was he a little shit or what? Talk about a sense of entitlement.
Yes Kirk is consistent with his treatment of women as portrayed in the past

Kirk took on a boy not a man in Charlie X.
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Old August 24 2014, 01:45 PM   #21
EnriqueH
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
EnriqueH wrote: View Post
I thought Kirk's behavior in Elaan was consistent with the way he was portrayed in the past.

In fact, we've seen Kirk try to teach a man how to behave: in Charlie X.

Boy, was he a little shit or what? Talk about a sense of entitlement.
Yes Kirk is consistent with his treatment of women as portrayed in the past
Hmm, there's obviously something deeper here. Could you explain?
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Old August 24 2014, 01:55 PM   #22
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

That would be difficult, since "warbird" is the name applied to the massive Romulan vessel seen in episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, and no vessel with that nomenclature existed during the original series.
TOS had no vessel called Bird of Prey in it, either, but that doesn't preclude us from assigning said identity to the vessel seen in "Balance of Terror". We now know that "warbird" is valid terminology for Klingon as well as Romulan vessels (and that bird of prey is valid Klingon terminology even though there's no canon indication that Romulans would use it). So I don't see problems with above usage.

What the hell the Federation are doing with them?
Trying to bring them to peace? If that requires making them part of the Federation, why not? The Federation is always meddling with the affairs of its member worlds but never has absolute control over them, and tolerates all kinds of alien or barbaric behavior from them (say, Vulcan or Ardana).

It's fun to remember that the real-world namesakes of Elas and Troyius are both NATO members yet essentially in a state of war against each other even today...

I don't think they are Federation Members, the episode spoke of nuclear weapons being recently achieved, so that would be their tech level.
Tech level doesn't appear to have much to do with whether somebody could be a Federation member or not. It's basically a fandom concept that a civilization would need to pass some sort of a test or threshold to get permission to apply; all we really know is that the Feds don't volunteer first contact unless certain (unknown) criteria are met, but that's seldom related to membership issues.

As another aside I find it difficult to believe that Uhura had to give up her 'palatial' cabin for Elaan. in 'Journey to Babel' they had 100 ambassadors on board. Where did they put them?
In the quarters of Uhura, Sulu, Chekov, Scotty, Spock and, apparently, Kirk. After all, this is the only episode where Kirk is stated to be living on Deck 5, as opposed to the more usual mentions of Deck 12 and Deck 3.

I doubt the various quarters really differ from each other much in terms of habitability. What this reshuffling would achieve instead would be packing the officers tight, perhaps with three or four sharing quarters temporarily, so that the envoys could enjoy basic military habitability standards. Kirk wouldn't need to share, but he would need to relocate so that entire decks could be dedicated to the diplomatic parties.

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Old August 24 2014, 03:14 PM   #23
Terran_Empire
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

CommishSleer wrote: View Post

Yes in an enlightened Federation women should still be polite and be 'good little girls' and accept being married to someone they don't want to for the next 50 years.
Women in poor countries today marry older Western men for much lesser rewards.

Hey I know they were still doing it 100 years later in TNG so its gotta be OK.

And if the Dohlman was a man I don't think Kirk would be talking down to and spanking the guy. Or showing him how to eat.
This isn't some innocent farm hand or baker's daughter that is being shipped off against her whims...this is a woman of the highest position and who holds the highest responsibilities.

The fact that she doesn't have the vision or interest in protecting her people is far more alarming than any arrangement without her consent.

Kirk even offered her to resign from her position and let another taker over if she was not up to fulfilling her duties. She of course refused because what is what a spoiled brat does, she wants all of the advantageous that comes with being the "Dohlman" and none of the responsibilities.

It's not as if Petri and his people were elated to have her as a queen either, they wanted nothing to do with her but they understood what sacrifice means to maintain peace, she did not.




Finally, the women of Elas are renown for using their love-inducing tears to subjugate men into servitude and this manipulation is quite transparent with the Dohlman towards Kirk...why no mention of this from the feminist contingent? Does not a man deserve to pick and choose his lovers and who he bends over backwards for out of free will?

Petri mentioned that the men of Elas had desperately tried and failed to find an antidote for thousands of years...meaning that these powers were likely abused in the most extreme ways.
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Old August 24 2014, 03:31 PM   #24
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

I wonder if at some future point in time, if a Dohlman woman were to serve on a starship, she'd have to (similar to The Motion Picture's Ilia) take an oath of tear-lessness?

Petri alone makes this episode worthwhile. What a great, entertaining character!
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Old August 24 2014, 03:42 PM   #25
Forbin
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

The only thing I dislike about this episode is the Elasian costumes. Glittery plastic sheets, basically. I thought they looked ridiculous.

Oh, and one of my favorite bad lines of dialog, when Elaan tells Kirk, "You cannot resist my love, my love."
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Old August 24 2014, 03:50 PM   #26
Forbin
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

Timo wrote: View Post
That would be difficult, since "warbird" is the name applied to the massive Romulan vessel seen in episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, and no vessel with that nomenclature existed during the original series.
TOS had no vessel called Bird of Prey in it, either, but that doesn't preclude us from assigning said identity to the vessel seen in "Balance of Terror". We now know that "warbird" is valid terminology for Klingon as well as Romulan vessels (and that bird of prey is valid Klingon terminology even though there's no canon indication that Romulans would use it). So I don't see problems with above usage.
"Warbird" was only applied to Klingon ships in an Episode of Enterprise written by a moron who failed miserably at Trek history, in a miserable series that failed miserably at Trek history. You can take that as canon if you wish. I take it as as an error. In TOS, they were not called that. The term was first and officially used in TNG as applied to Romulan ships, which is where that moron writer heard it.
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Old August 24 2014, 06:22 PM   #27
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
If Kirk were truly a compassionate man he would have presented Elaan her options at the end of the episode.

He could have said if you don't really want to marry the 'Troyan pig' then leg it. But he didn't do it ...
Yes he did, about half way through the episode (admittedly not at the end).

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Old August 24 2014, 06:52 PM   #28
scotpens
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

Forbin wrote: View Post
The only thing I dislike about this episode is the Elasian costumes. Glittery plastic sheets, basically. I thought they looked ridiculous.
The outfits were actually made from cut-up plastic placemats. I thought they made the ceremonial guards look like lobsters.

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Old August 24 2014, 07:07 PM   #29
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

Forbin wrote: View Post
The only thing I dislike about this episode is the Elasian costumes. Glittery plastic sheets, basically. I thought they looked ridiculous.

Oh, and one of my favorite bad lines of dialog, when Elaan tells Kirk, "You cannot resist my love, my love."
Spot on.
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Old August 24 2014, 07:11 PM   #30
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Re: Elaan of Troyius - Mess of an episode

It's a pity they couldn't have taken some old Roman soldier outfits from some old sword-and-sandle epic and modified those in some way.
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