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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 20 2014, 06:03 PM   #31
Marsden
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

I feel like we might be discussing The Wizard of Oz.

In the original books, Oz was a place to get to, in the movie it appears to be Dorothy's delusional state.

So the DS9 people assumed it was really there, and after TNG Parallels and other types of shows, I can see why, but I like your idea.
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Old August 20 2014, 07:27 PM   #32
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

It may actually exist in-universe, I like to think it does. But I'm not convinced someone can physically enter it, based on "Mirror, Mirror", and it really establishes the rules.
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Old August 20 2014, 09:47 PM   #33
Vandervecken
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Melakon wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Halkan leader behaved pretty much the same in our and the parallel universe).
Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans were somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity. We know nothing about their culture or technology, except that they're peaceniks who like sitting outdoors and watching ion storms. They're not stone age people, because they have a way of communicating via visual transmission.
Interesting idea. Maybe the Halkans were somewhat like the Organians (except with some tech as window dressing).
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Old August 21 2014, 04:12 AM   #34
Joska Daro
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Joska Daro wrote: View Post
I want to write a fic about the whole "transporter kills people" idea…
(In Chinese of course…and it might become K&S (or K/S…))
James Blish already raised the idea in his novel Spock Must Die way back in 1970.
I know that. I have read that book.
( I thought he wrote it in 1960s? I have a Spock Messiah (but I can't seem to find it maybe it's at one of my friends' home) published in…1969 if I'm not mistaken. )

I'm thinking about something different…something totally based on this, not just to mention the idea in a conversation between Bones&Scotty
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Old August 21 2014, 04:39 AM   #35
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

^^ Nope. Published in 1970. Although he could have actually written it sometime in 1969-70.

It was the first original Star Trek novel written for adults. Previous material in comics and a book or two were aimed more at kids. The next adult level book, Spock: Messiah, didn't arrive until 1976.

That said Ballantine started releasing the Star Trek Log series by Alan Dean Foster two years earlier in 1974. It's debatable regarding who the intended audience was for the Log books. They don't read like kids' books, but they're not challenging reads either. In some respects they feel more adult level than the original TAS episodes that were adapted for the Log series.

I can recall reading those Trek books back in the '70s and as a teenager I didn't make much distinction between them. As the years passed, though, I noticed more difference between a book like Spock Must Die and ADF's Log books. James Blish's writing does read as more adult level than ADF's and Blish's style lends the material a different and somewhat more serious feel. I've reread Spock Must Die several times over the years and the Log books not nearly so.
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Old August 21 2014, 06:33 AM   #36
Joska Daro
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Warped9 wrote: View Post
^^ Nope. Published in 1970. Although he could have actually written it sometime in 1969-70.

It was the first original Star Trek novel written for adults. Previous material in comics and a book or two were aimed more at kids. The next adult level book, Spock: Messiah, didn't arrive until 1976.

That said Ballantine started releasing the Star Trek Log series by Alan Dean Foster two years earlier in 1974. It's debatable regarding who the intended audience was for the Log books. They don't read like kids' books, but they're not challenging reads either. In some respects they feel more adult level than the original TAS episodes that were adapted for the Log series.

I can recall reading those Trek books back in the '70s and as a teenager I didn't make much distinction between them. As the years passed, though, I noticed more difference between a book like Spock Must Die and ADF's Log books. James Blish's writing does read as more adult level than ADF's and Blish's style lends the material a different and somewhat more serious feel. I've retread Spock Must Die several times over the years and the Log books not nearly so.
Oh. Thank you so much. Sorry for the mistake.
To me it all feels like a long long time ago…
Spock Must Die is older than my mother…
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Old August 21 2014, 08:07 AM   #37
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Melakon wrote: View Post
The only thing that got me on the path of the Halkans manipulating everything was a review long ago in either the old Trek or Enterprise Incidents fanzines suggesting an exchange of consciousness. It's why I think DS9 completely misread the episode. The landing party is in Mirror Uniforms, not their own.

I think it's brilliant to say that the Halkans sent Kirk's landing party into a virtual world, a simulation of some kind, as a test of character. It solves some otherwise difficult problems with the mirror universe concept. Like, if everyone in the cast is so different over there, and events in that universe unfold so differently, then how could the cast all find themselves in the same career spots, and together, at the same time?

My old explanation was that the mirror universe never existed until this particular ion storm interacted with the Enterprise transporter. As Kirk's party beamed up, the whole other universe sprang into existence at once-- an inaccurate, fuzzy carbon copy of the real thing. [If time travel can generate whole alternate timelines instantly, how big a stretch is this?] When the episode concludes, the evil four disappear because their whole universe disappears. Its history existed only in the newly-created minds of its occupants, who were there only as distorted reflections of the real people. [Or maybe, having been newly created ex nihilo, the mirror universe continued forever on its own terms (thus allowing for DS9).]

On the other hand, if the mirror universe is real but only consciousness is exchanged, then Kirk or Uhura might have found themselves with a big honkin' case of herpes over there.

As for DS9, who's to say that any given episode was not a work of DS9 fiction, such as a short story written by Jake Sisko? Or you could say that the whole of DS9 is a separate work and not in the same canon as TOS.
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Old August 21 2014, 08:33 AM   #38
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Wasn't there someone who wrote a fan fiction story that had all the Star Trek episodes and films as a prolonged Starfleet fictionalized documentary that covered all the 20 years of travels of Captain Pike, Kirk, and Spock as the five year mission of Kirk? Plus the more weird adventures being training simulations in the holodeck that the documentrary crew did because it was a long boring flight between worlds at warp 6. I seem to remember that being a think no more than a decade ago.
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Old August 21 2014, 01:52 PM   #39
Joska Daro
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

the Halkans sent Kirk's landing party into a virtual world, a simulation of some kind, as a test of character
That's…fascinating!
I thought the mirror universe was created in City On The Edge Of Forever before this thread.
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Old August 21 2014, 03:43 PM   #40
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
My old explanation was that the mirror universe never existed until this particular ion storm interacted with the Enterprise transporter. As Kirk's party beamed up, the whole other universe sprang into existence at once-- an inaccurate, fuzzy carbon copy of the real thing. [If time travel can generate whole alternate timelines instantly, how big a stretch is this?] When the episode concludes, the evil four disappear because their whole universe disappears. Its history existed only in the newly-created minds of its occupants, who were there only as distorted reflections of the real people. [Or maybe, having been newly created ex nihilo, the mirror universe continued forever on its own terms (thus allowing for DS9).
When I first saw the episode at 16, this was my thinking too, that it suddenly came to be, and hadn't existed for very long at all. It's the only way I can rationalize "That spot-- I spilled acid there a year ago!"

DS9 just messes everything up for me. ENT, however, handled it brilliantly, with everything, including us, being in the Mirror Universe.
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Old August 21 2014, 04:42 PM   #41
Robert Comsol
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I think it's brilliant to say that the Halkans sent Kirk's landing party into a virtual world, a simulation of some kind, as a test of character.
But what about the mirror universe characters arriving on “our” Enterprise? Is that an illusion Talosian-style, then?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
My old explanation was that the mirror universe never existed until this particular ion storm interacted with the Enterprise transporter. As Kirk's party beamed up, the whole other universe sprang into existence at once-- an inaccurate, fuzzy carbon copy of the real thing. [If time travel can generate whole alternate timelines instantly, how big a stretch is this?] When the episode concludes, the evil four disappear because their whole universe disappears.
I hope you don’t mind that I disagree. IMHO, that’s such a big stretch that I find myself unable to estimate the end of it. This whole concept of alternate realities popping instantly into existence from practically nowhere would require some kind of intelligent design by somebody like a Q (maybe the peace loving Halkans did have a Q as their guardian angel?).

I also find it somewhat problematic that the pacifist Halkans, who are afraid their dilithium could be abused to harm somebody else, would have no problems on the other hand to put Kirk and company to a character test with a high probability they could get harmed or killed. For a Q that could be a completely different issue…

On the other hand, what exactly did Spock do aboard the Enterprise all that time before stating “I assume they returned to their Enterprise at the same time you appeared here”?

Kirk used the computer as a means to figure out a way to return them to their universe, it stands to reason that Spock did the same on “our” Enterprise.
I think there is a high probability that he calculated the amount of time it might take the others to rig the transporter, had the mirror characters brought, tranquilized or whatever in the transport chamber and waited for the transporter beam impulse from the mirror universe that would tell him that our characters were arriving so he could send the mirror characters to the location the transporter beam was coming from.

I think the fact, that Spock and Lt. Kyle were in the transporter room the minute that Kirk and company arrived back from the mirror universe tells us exactly that.

Obviously Spock was expecting their return on the transport chamber’s platform, otherwise there would have been no reason for him being there.

Bob
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Old August 21 2014, 10:27 PM   #42
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Melakon wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
My old explanation was that the mirror universe never existed until this particular ion storm interacted with the Enterprise transporter. As Kirk's party beamed up, the whole other universe sprang into existence at once-- an inaccurate, fuzzy carbon copy of the real thing. [If time travel can generate whole alternate timelines instantly, how big a stretch is this?] When the episode concludes, the evil four disappear because their whole universe disappears. Its history existed only in the newly-created minds of its occupants, who were there only as distorted reflections of the real people. [Or maybe, having been newly created ex nihilo, the mirror universe continued forever on its own terms (thus allowing for DS9).
When I first saw the episode at 16, this was my thinking too, that it suddenly came to be, and hadn't existed for very long at all. It's the only way I can rationalize "That spot-- I spilled acid there a year ago!"
I never did get the significance of the acid spot. Aside from the fact that we never saw the acid burn in our (well, their) universe, I'm not sure what that bit proved. Also, I'm no doctor, but what exactly was McCoy dong with acid in the first place?

When the crew beams back to their (well, our) universe, Spock says "Welcome home, Captain." That says to me that he expected them, which in turn suggests that he knew what was happening 'over there'. How, you ask? I say in the spirit of the story, Spock used some application of the tantalus device, which "here" was used for scientific or study purposes, whereas in the mirrorland, Kirk used it for acquiring power.
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Old August 22 2014, 03:28 AM   #43
Joska Daro
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

This whole concept of alternate realities popping instantly into existence from practically nowhere would require some kind of intelligent design by somebody like a Q (maybe the peace loving Halkans did have a Q as their guardian angel?).
But first of all why would a Q feel like to protect the Halkans? And a Q will know USS Enterprise is no threat to the Halkans.
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Old August 22 2014, 04:23 AM   #44
Cookies and Cake
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Melakon wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Halkan leader behaved pretty much the same in our and the parallel universe).
Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans were somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity. We know nothing about their culture or technology, except that they're peaceniks who like sitting outdoors and watching ion storms. They're not stone age people, because they have a way of communicating via visual transmission.

I don't think there was a physical transference of the landing party's bodies into the other universe. I favor the idea that only their consciousness was swapped.

This is part of the problem I have with what DS9 did with the Mirror Universe, because they always present it as a physical transference.
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
The only thing that got me on the path of the Halkans manipulating everything was a review long ago in either the old Trek or Enterprise Incidents fanzines suggesting an exchange of consciousness. It's why I think DS9 completely misread the episode. The landing party is in Mirror Uniforms, not their own.

I think it's brilliant to say that the Halkans sent Kirk's landing party into a virtual world, a simulation of some kind, as a test of character. It solves some otherwise difficult problems with the mirror universe concept. Like, if everyone in the cast is so different over there, and events in that universe unfold so differently, then how could the cast all find themselves in the same career spots, and together, at the same time?

My old explanation was that the mirror universe never existed until this particular ion storm interacted with the Enterprise transporter. As Kirk's party beamed up, the whole other universe sprang into existence at once-- an inaccurate, fuzzy carbon copy of the real thing. [If time travel can generate whole alternate timelines instantly, how big a stretch is this?] When the episode concludes, the evil four disappear because their whole universe disappears. Its history existed only in the newly-created minds of its occupants, who were there only as distorted reflections of the real people.
Both Melakon's and ZapBrannigan's theories have occurred to me before, and I think they are both reasonable. A mixture of the two might involve the Halkan higher power pulling it off.
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Old August 22 2014, 04:36 AM   #45
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

And we never learn the Halkans' final decision, though I assume they don't budge.
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