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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 18 2014, 02:55 PM   #16
Robert Comsol
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Interesting thread!

I think technically speaking we are just looking at a parallel universe (IIRC, after "The Alternative Factor" that was parallel universe # 2) and the "mirror universe" definition is somewhat misleading (as if all protagonists in that universe were the evil counterparts as suggested in "The Enemy Within" which is not the case - The Halkan leader behaved pretty much the same in our and the parallel universe).

KIRK: But one man can change the present. Be the captain of this Enterprise, Mister Spock. Find a logical reason for sparing the Halkans and make it stick. Push till it gives. You can defend yourself better than any man in the fleet.

Kirk's delaying of bombarding the Halkan cities inevitably put MirrorKirk in a hot seat and what did MirrorKirk have to offer as an explanation after his return from "our" universe? That he had been held in a brig of a parallel universe?

Sure, he had MirrorMcCoy, MirrorScott and MirrorUhura as witnesses, but would these have actually risked to defend MirrorKirk? And what about MirrorSulu?

MirrorSpock had the means to lock MirrorKirk away (not in his quarters with the Tantalus device, obviously) and assume command of the ISS Enterprise (but how to spare the Halkans is a different thing, of course).

Bob
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Old August 18 2014, 03:11 PM   #17
Nebusj
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I don't think Spock-prime had the evil four standing in the transporter room. That's too big a plot hole, since he'd have no way of knowing just when to do that.
Oh, now that Spock knows with certainty: wait for the last possible moment when physics will allow the transfer to be done, then wait another couple dramatic beats, and hope. Spock knows his Kirk, after all.
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Old August 19 2014, 02:35 AM   #18
Joska Daro
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

So now it's about whether TOS Spock has the four on the transporter pad before TOS Kirk returns? I don't think that's important, for it doesn't matter what really happened on the USS Enterprise. It's about Kirk's idea of what might be happening.
And he didn't know if Mirror Kirk is identified until he returned to his ship.
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Old August 19 2014, 01:11 PM   #19
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Well, two other shows, both came after this one though, both made the theory that the returning of the original person to the original universe they came from automatically displaced the replacement person back to where they came from. So it's possible that the four Terran Empire people were in the brig and just disappeared back to their universe, maybe in their brig, but our four people were on the transporter.


But then, (to paraphrase Spock from the Cage) The uninforms!

I think the respective transporters in each universe corrected the uniforms as they materialized on the pads, so that's how they were dressed properly for each universe. That's a little silly, but the transporter has done more with less before.

I don't think refering to something else in a post changes this to a fan fiction thread, it's about Mirror, Mirror. Or was that a fan fiction? I haven't seen that Star Trek Continues film, but it doesn't change Mirror, Mirror either way. I think it's just as valid to be in this forum as anything that mention those last two Star Trek movies. They are alternate universes, too.

As for the "Mirror Universe" It made a great episode, but I think they've gone back to it way too many times.
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Old August 19 2014, 01:45 PM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Marsden wrote: View Post
So it's possible that the four Terran Empire people were in the brig and just disappeared back to their universe, maybe in their brig, but our four people were on the transporter.
Considering Spock's "assumption" I believe this is the scenario we are actually looking at, unless MirrorSpock had the means to pinpoint his Kirk in our universe.

SPOCK: It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave like barbarians, than it was for them to behave like civilised men. I assume they returned to their Enterprise at the same time you appeared here.

Marsden wrote: View Post
I think the respective transporters in each universe corrected the uniforms as they materialized on the pads, so that's how they were dressed properly for each universe. That's a little silly, but the transporter has done more with less before.
Or it's merely their consciousnesses, souls or whatever you may call it, that had been swapped.

After all, the transporter had split Kirk's personality in "The Enemy Within" and put it back together, so it does have such a kind of capability.

Bob
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Old August 19 2014, 02:52 PM   #21
Marsden
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Or it's merely their consciousnesses, souls or whatever you may call it, that had been swapped.

After all, the transporter had split Kirk's personality in "The Enemy Within" and put it back together, so it does have such a kind of capability.

Bob
I agree, but that's one of the reasons that I don't really like to think about the transporter too deeply. (I'm still not convinced everyone that's been transported isn't some kind of undead copy created from the remains of their former body, killed by the transporter dematerializing them.)

So, if Sulu was in the party, would he have popped up with a huge scar? At least until returned? I'm just asking, not disputing, some people ask questions as an opening gambit for argument, I just think the scar should be there if that's the idea of what's happening. But if the conscience was the only thing returned, the bodies should have been in the brig, right? Or the action of the transporter could have rematerialized them from the brig to the pad in one action. Ugh, I'm over analyzing this, aren't I?
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Last edited by Marsden; August 19 2014 at 07:09 PM.
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Old August 19 2014, 06:23 PM   #22
Robert Comsol
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Marsden wrote: View Post
... one of the reasons that I don't really like to think about the transporter to deeply.
I couldn't agree more, it's mostly a very convenient plot device that takes care of any plotholes the interested viewer might notice.

Bob
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Old August 20 2014, 07:08 AM   #23
Joska Daro
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

I want to write a fic about the whole "transporter kills people" idea…
(In Chinese of course…and it might become K&S (or K/S…))
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Old August 20 2014, 08:12 AM   #24
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Halkan leader behaved pretty much the same in our and the parallel universe).
Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans were somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity. We know nothing about their culture or technology, except that they're peaceniks who like sitting outdoors and watching ion storms. They're not stone age people, because they have a way of communicating via visual transmission.

I don't think there was a physical transference of the landing party's bodies into the other universe. I favor the idea that only their consciousness was swapped.

This is part of the problem I have with what DS9 did with the Mirror Universe, because they always present it as a physical transference.
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Last edited by Melakon; August 20 2014 at 12:07 PM. Reason: sticking R key makes awkward errors, like 'wee' for 'were'
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Old August 20 2014, 10:06 AM   #25
Robert Comsol
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Melakon wrote: View Post
Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans wee somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity.
Fascinating speculation!

Undoubtedly, the Halkans were more advanced than it may have appeared, because they knew exactly what you could do with dilithium crystals (the budget-saving outdoor setting could probably be rationalized with the Halkan leader being an "outdoor" fan).

If we were to assume that the Halkans had some kind of mental connection to their counterparts in the parallel universe (a capability I believe Guinan has), then MirrorHalkan could confirm that Kirk would stick to his non-aggressive philosophy even in the mirror universe, while "our" Halkan could confirm that the Federation has effective contingency measures for aggressive individuals...

Bob
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Old August 20 2014, 10:46 AM   #26
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Joska Daro wrote: View Post
I want to write a fic about the whole "transporter kills people" idea…
(In Chinese of course…and it might become K&S (or K/S…))
James Blish already raised the idea in his novel Spock Must Die way back in 1970.
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Old August 20 2014, 01:09 PM   #27
Marsden
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Melakon wrote: View Post
Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans were somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity. We know nothing about their culture or technology, except that they're peaceniks who like sitting outdoors and watching ion storms. They're not stone age people, because they have a way of communicating via visual transmission.
Wow. I like that. Then perhaps there is no parallel universe at all and the whole thing was a mental trick like the Melkotians or even the Talosians.

Great idea Melakon!

I'd buy that for a dollar, I owe you a buck.
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Old August 20 2014, 04:52 PM   #28
Melakon
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Well, I don't think that was anywhere near the intent. I think the Halkans were the bad guys in original drafts. I'm not sure I want to make them telepaths though, because of the similarity to those you mention. I had thought they perhaps had tech enabling them to control ion storms and their effects. Spock did say it was "quite violent and unpredictable". It might have been something they did to all visitors as a defense system, protecting themselves through non-violence.
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Old August 20 2014, 05:40 PM   #29
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Melakon wrote: View Post
Well, I don't think that was anywhere near the intent.
No, it definitely wasn't the intent, but your theory is an interesting one. The entire context of the episode was that the Halkans feared that the "good guy" Federation would eventually change into an evil empire. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere a deux ex machina happens which causes exactly that. That's far more of a coincidence than not, don't you think?

Unfortunately, DS9 and ENT came along with their bastardized versions of the Mirror universe, canonically putting it into the realm of "there actually was an evil parallel universe," and not something the Halkans created as a test.
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Old August 20 2014, 05:58 PM   #30
Melakon
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Re: Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

The only thing that got me on the path of the Halkans manipulating everything was a review long ago in either the old Trek or Enterprise Incidents fanzines suggesting an exchange of consciousness. It's why I think DS9 completely misread the episode. The landing party is in Mirror Uniforms, not their own.
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