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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old August 10 2014, 08:30 AM   #31
beamMe
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
And it was shoe-horned and awkward.

I'm gay and I don't want to be portrayed as just a gay man. I want to be portrayed as a person who just so happens to be gay.

Put us in there, but don't make a big deal. Who knows? Maybe some characters in Trek are gay and we never knew because that's not their character, it's a detail.
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
And it was shoe-horned and awkward.

I'm gay and I don't want to be portrayed as just a gay man. I want to be portrayed as a person who just so happens to be gay.

Put us in there, but don't make a big deal. Who knows? Maybe some characters in Trek are gay and we never knew because that's not their character, it's a detail.
I'm bisexual...and I agree with you 100%.
lennier1 wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
And it was shoe-horned and awkward.

I'm gay and I don't want to be portrayed as just a gay man. I want to be portrayed as a person who just so happens to be gay.

Put us in there, but don't make a big deal. Who knows? Maybe some characters in Trek are gay and we never knew because that's not their character, it's a detail.
That's the part that annoys me to no end. I don't expect the productions to make a big deal about some character's hair color either.
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
I didn't, he seemed flat. Like his entire character was "the gay." That's it. I did not enjoy that.
I'm gay and I don't agree with you. I think the point in Blood and Fire was to show a young couple in love. No one in that story bat an eye that it was a gay couple, as that wasn't the focus.
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Old August 10 2014, 11:22 PM   #32
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

I had a problem with Blood & Fire in that I thought the love scene with Peter Kirk and Freeman went on too long - it just felt like it dragged, especially with two characters that I hadn't had time to become invested in.

Having said that, I think Peter Kirk has otherwise been handled really well in Phase II .
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Old August 10 2014, 11:28 PM   #33
Joel_Kirk
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

DCR wrote: View Post
I had a problem with Blood & Fire in that I thought the love scene with Peter Kirk and Freeman went on too long - it just felt like it dragged, especially with two characters that I hadn't had time to become invested in.

Having said that, I think Peter Kirk has otherwise been handled really well in Phase II .
I also don't mind Peter Kirk in Phase II, but I - as been mentioned before - it seemed the love scene was trying to make a point and get attention, rather than have it be natural/normalized for the audience as well as the in-universe characters.

It was like: LOOK! BECAUSE WE ARE STAR TREK, WE HAVE A GAY COUPLE! LOOK!

I've found that when Star Trek unconsciously adds diversity it works. Whenever it tries to speak for all demographics, it usually comes off forced.
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Old August 11 2014, 02:02 AM   #34
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

That these topics invariably become arguments over the merits or failures of "Blood and Fire" points out the paucity of gay anything in Star Trek in general and fanfilms as well.
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Old August 11 2014, 05:21 PM   #35
beamMe
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
I also don't mind Peter Kirk in Phase II, but I - as been mentioned before - it seemed the love scene was trying to make a point and get attention,
Yes, it did. "Look this is a couple. You, audience, are supposed to care about them. They are important to the story."

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
rather than have it be natural/normalized for the audience as well as the in-universe characters.
Whatever that means.
What's more "natural" than a young couple in loving embrace?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
It was like: LOOK! BECAUSE WE ARE STAR TREK, WE HAVE A GAY COUPLE! LOOK!
I think you should get over yourself.
Like I said before, had that been a male/female-couple no one would have bat an eye.
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Old August 12 2014, 12:33 AM   #36
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

I applaud and appreciate Phase II for not shying away from letting the gay couple be romantic and sexual. All too often even now gay men in media are portrayed as asexual best friends - having Peter Kirk be an important character, nephew of Captain Kirk, and be allowed to express love and sexuality with an honesty that is rarely seen.
We had whole episodes and on going storylines focused on hetero love in Trek all the time, I don't see how Blood and Fire did anything "worse" than what's been done before, just with a gay male couple.
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Old August 12 2014, 12:42 AM   #37
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

beamMe wrote: View Post
I think you should get over yourself.
That was unnecessary.
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Old August 12 2014, 01:06 AM   #38
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

beamMe wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
I also don't mind Peter Kirk in Phase II, but I - as been mentioned before - it seemed the love scene was trying to make a point and get attention,
Yes, it did. "Look this is a couple. You, audience, are supposed to care about them. They are important to the story."
And, the story should have been able to do that without a long gimmicy take.

beamMe wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
rather than have it be natural/normalized for the audience as well as the in-universe characters.
Whatever that means.
What's more "natural" than a young couple in loving embrace?
It is natural when it isn't forced in a film or show as a way for the filmmakers to pat themselves on the back.

beamMe wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
It was like: LOOK! BECAUSE WE ARE STAR TREK, WE HAVE A GAY COUPLE! LOOK!
I think you should get over yourself.
Like I said before, had that been a male/female-couple no one would have bat an eye.
No, I battle with myself all the time. And, I found that Joel-1 and Joel-2 tend to work better together rather than apart.

Had it been a male/female couple, particularly a black male opposite a non-black female....I'm sure eyes would have batted, and it would have come off as forced as well.

From a cinematic standpoint, that scene could have been cut down. It could have been placed later on in the episode after we've got to know the two characters; maybe after a battle when one thinks the other has died or something.

In the current context, as aforementioned, it's forced and messes up the pacing of the picture. And, even if it was a male/female couple of the same racial background it still messes - or, at least, fiddles - with the pacing of the episode.
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Last edited by Joel_Kirk; August 12 2014 at 01:37 AM.
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Old August 12 2014, 06:23 AM   #39
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

I know I'm going to regret this... but here I go.

Star Trek was TERRIBLE at showing ALL couples. I'm not gay. I'm old enough to have watched TOS first run. I am weird enough that I never understood why gay people were singled out and not just encouraged to have long term committed relationships which is what is best for public health way back BEFORE AIDS...

That said, I thought the B&F love scene was tasteful and not cringe-worthy. The overwhelming majority of Pro Trek love scenes are cringe-worthy at best. I thought the B&F scene was a fine love scene, much better than most of the Pro Trek hetero ones, more natural, more fun, more legitimately intimate. I was EXPECTING to cringe, but I didn't.

From what you gay folks are saying... perhaps the problem is they act too much like a normal strait couple but happen to be gay? I realize it was long by Trek standards. I realize I am not and never will be a gay man. But forced? Watch any Kirk love scene from TOS... that's my idea of FORCED and IDIOTIC. This was much better.

OK, wipe me off the face of the planet. But I have been reading this and reading it and I had to say it. I know NOTHING about how gay people act when they are alone with their beloved. But as a STRAIT FEMALE person, I found this scene pleasant and tasteful. I can't say the same for Kirk in TOS.

I know I should now duck into a dark corner...
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Old August 12 2014, 07:21 AM   #40
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

beamMe wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
And it was shoe-horned and awkward.

I'm gay and I don't want to be portrayed as just a gay man. I want to be portrayed as a person who just so happens to be gay.

Put us in there, but don't make a big deal. Who knows? Maybe some characters in Trek are gay and we never knew because that's not their character, it's a detail.
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post

I'm bisexual...and I agree with you 100%.
lennier1 wrote: View Post
That's the part that annoys me to no end. I don't expect the productions to make a big deal about some character's hair color either.
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
I didn't, he seemed flat. Like his entire character was "the gay." That's it. I did not enjoy that.
I'm gay and I don't agree with you. I think the point in Blood and Fire was to show a young couple in love. No one in that story bat an eye that it was a gay couple, as that wasn't the focus.
Scene didn't hurt my feelings one bit.
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Old August 12 2014, 08:24 AM   #41
MauriceNavidad
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

Barbreader wrote: View Post
From what you gay folks are saying... perhaps the problem is they act too much like a normal strai[gh]t couple but happen to be gay? I realize it was long by Trek standards.
There's not much different between couples of any gender mix in terms of intimacy and playing around like that.

The problem I had with the scene was it was overlong and too early in the story. We hardly even knew these characters names.
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Old August 12 2014, 02:21 PM   #42
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

Maurice wrote: View Post
The problem I had with the scene was it was overlong and too early in the story. We hardly even knew these characters names.
It's part of what made it so annoying, though it's par for the course.

Think back to Balance of Terror. The young couple about to be married had never received any screen time before, one of them dies over the course of the episode and the other was never to be seen again after the end credits. Why exactly were we supposed to give a damn about them?

As constructed as the appearance in Phase II was, at least the character wasn't some insignificant throwaway character.
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Old August 12 2014, 04:52 PM   #43
beamMe
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

Basill wrote: View Post
Scene didn't hurt my feelings one bit.
Good.

I agree that the scene was too long, but at least it had some nice eye-candy.
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Old August 12 2014, 11:06 PM   #44
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
It was like: LOOK! BECAUSE WE ARE STAR TREK, WE HAVE A GAY COUPLE! LOOK!
That's exactly it, and the fact that we weren't invested in the characters outside of their sexuality.
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Old August 13 2014, 05:34 PM   #45
beamMe
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Re: LGBT characters and themes in Trek fan films?

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
It was like: LOOK! BECAUSE WE ARE STAR TREK, WE HAVE A GAY COUPLE! LOOK!
That's exactly it, and the fact that we weren't invested in the characters outside of their sexuality.
Your reactions just show how necessary such scenes still are in science fiction.
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