RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,444
Posts: 5,507,775
Members: 25,134
Currently online: 424
Newest member: xunixan

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 31 2014, 08:04 AM   #46
Cookies and Cake
Admiral
 
Location: North America
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
Oh, and I also enjoy Brent Spiner's tour de force performance in ”Masks.” Two things are for sure with this episode: Masaka is waking, and haters gonna hate.
I think the mythology in "Masks" is cute, but the idea that this alien culture chose to communicate for posterity in a way that is a hazard to the benefactors of their legacy is just plain bizarre, to say the least.

Also, we should pause to appreciate the subtlety in the name Masaka, about on the level of getting whacked in the face by a shovel.

Still, it dared to be different, and for that I give it points. It's in the better half of season seven, AFAIC.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Cookies and Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 08:06 AM   #47
Joel_Kirk
Rear Admiral
 
Joel_Kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' on Ligon II...
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Harvey wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
First off, you might want to actually read the responses, particularly posts #33 and 34, before you try to tell me what I should and shouldn't be speaking out against. Those posters, in their own way, also give their little opinions on why the particular episode was problematic, as well as why certain black characters - Geordi LaForge - were portrayed the way they were.
Oh, I read them, and you'll notice I didn't object towards your response to post #33. The idea that Geordi should have gone after "homely gal[s]" because he was blind deserves to be called out as offensive, for a multitude of reasons.

Your reaction to jimbotron and others, however, was hyperbolic to say the least.
Well, you're only looking at 'part' of the response in #33; again not reading comprehensively.

Post #33 had the idea that Geordi should go for homely gals, or be paired with a homely 'white' gal because he was blind and black. The reason he was paired with 'Aquiel' (an forehead alien woman, visibly portrayed by a black woman) was because she was 'in his league' - black - basically saying that Geordi should 1. Stay with his own kind. 2. Black women aren't as good as other women. 3. Attractive Asian, Latin, or white women are only regulated to white men.

This line of thinking isn't something new. And since you were quick to throw a non-fiction book on me - one I've already read, and a subject I'm all too familiar with - you might want to look up representations of people of color, specifically African Americans, outside a Trek board.

Furthermore, post #34 just basically said 'yikes' at another Trek episode being predominantly black. That was offensive. Whether or not 'A Night in Sickbay' is considered a 'bad' or 'good' episode, just saying the episode will be bad if the cast is hypothetically non-white is offensive.

Welcome to 2014. We should all be a bit more enlightened.

If you don't think so. Well, you can hold that opinion. As an African American male who holds a 'different' opinion on the matter - and was offended by a few racist comments, as aforementioned - I will give an alternative point of view.
__________________
#BlackLivesMatter/#CrimingWhileWhite/#icantbreathe

Last edited by Joel_Kirk; July 31 2014 at 08:32 AM.
Joel_Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 08:07 AM   #48
SantaEddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
SantaEddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The North Pole of the Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View SantaEddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Season 7 had some real stinkers, that's for certain. I believe it's still considered a war crime in over 100 countries to even watch ”Sub Rosa” alone in a dark room with the sound turned all the way down.
__________________
Remember what cooleddie74 says, kids:

"Don't forget to have a Patrick Swayze Christmas!"
SantaEddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 08:39 AM   #49
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Well, you're only looking at 'part' of the response in #33; again not reading comprehensively.
No need to be condescending. My reading was comprehensive; my response was not. When I said "I didn't object towards your response to post #33" I meant that I didn't object to your response to post #33, including all the points you made therein.

This line of thinking isn't something new. You were quick to throw a non-fiction book on me, you might want to look up representations of people of color outside a Trek board.
I thought Bernardi was pretty relevant, since he talks about the episode in question in depth. Anything else would be pretty tangential to this thread, which is ostensibly about "favorite much-maligned TNG episodes."

Finally, post #34 just basically said 'yikes' at another Trek episode being predominantly black. That was offensive. Whether or not 'A Night in Sickbay' is considered a 'bad' or 'good' episode, just saying the episode will be bad if the cast is hypothetically non-white is offensive.
I can't speak for jimbotron, but I think you're reaching here, and ignoring the context of both episodes, which I think was the point.

It's a little late here, and I think this conversation has derailed this thread quite a bit.

So, I'll just say, I think "The Royale" is a decent little episode, with an interesting mystery and some appropriate atmosphere.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 08:56 AM   #50
Joel_Kirk
Rear Admiral
 
Joel_Kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' on Ligon II...
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Harvey wrote: View Post
Finally, post #34 just basically said 'yikes' at another Trek episode being predominantly black. That was offensive. Whether or not 'A Night in Sickbay' is considered a 'bad' or 'good' episode, just saying the episode will be bad if the cast is hypothetically non-white is offensive.
I can't speak for jimbotron, but I think you're reaching here, and ignoring the context of both episodes, which I think was the point.

It's a little late here, and I think this conversation has derailed this thread quite a bit.

So, I'll just say, I think "The Royale" is a decent little episode, with an interesting mystery and some appropriate atmosphere.
To answer your first point:
Well, this is the internet. When a comment is made, especially if it concerns race or gender or any 'touchy' subject, one should make sure he or she is clear.

I've always said that if 'Code of Honor' was so bad, they - the writers and producers - should have used the characters again in a stronger story. They didn't and chose to stick with primarily white performers as 'aliens.'

And, no, I'm not ignoring the context of 'Code of Honor.' As constantly stated, I don't mind the episode, and I wished the producers/writers actually had the balls to write a stronger story with the Ligonians in a later season.

As a writer and a person who wants to produce his own films someday, as a person who literally dislikes Hollywood and as an African American, I'll be quick to call out something if I found the context of a book or movie or TV episode questionable.

And, I agree: It's late here as well - Northern California - and the offensive comments that started this particular conversation have derailed the thread momentarily. Of course, until someone else points out race, and/or 'Code of Honor,' again.
__________________
#BlackLivesMatter/#CrimingWhileWhite/#icantbreathe
Joel_Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 02:34 PM   #51
Mutai Sho-Rin
Moderator
 
Mutai Sho-Rin's Avatar
 
Location: Orange, CA USA
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

And let's keep this thread on its intended rails to avoid the need of any trolling or flaming warnings.
__________________
Into the sands of blood comes the Sho-Rin, master of the Mutai. Babylon 5 - TKO
Mutai Sho-Rin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 04:03 PM   #52
Kobayshi Maru
Captain
 
Kobayshi Maru's Avatar
 
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

I like The Game, though most people I know hate it.
Kobayshi Maru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 06:33 PM   #53
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Wow, what did I create?

Though the moderator requested this thread get back on track, I feel I should elaborate my point.

Code of Honor was an episode which featured an alien species with something the Enterprise crew desperately needed, but were characterized as stereotypically tribal and unreasonable, with the crew needing to jump through hoops to appease them. Separate from that fact, the director chose to cast the entire species with African actors. I believe the script mentioned only the bodyguards were African. Even if that casting change hadn't been made, it would have been considered an awful episode, but the racist casting took it to a new level.

A Night in Sickbay sticks out to me as being another awful episode featuring backwards and unreasonable aliens who have something that the Enterprise crew desperately needs, and so the crew needs to jump through hoops to appease them. Similar to Code of Honor in many ways. It is recognized as an awful episode on its own merits. I just thought out the idea that what if they had made the same casting blunder? It would have made an awful episode even worse because of the trope "unfortunate implications". That's all.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 06:41 PM   #54
Admiral2
Vice Admiral
 
Admiral2's Avatar
 
Location: Arendelle
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Genesis.

An episode thoroughly mocked for its total illogical BS of a plot, it holds a place in my heart as the single TNG episode I enjoyed completely without reservation. No preachiness, no diplomacy, just straight up monsters eating each other and hunting Data and Picard.
__________________
"You should never give up on family -- even if they say harsh things and create snow monsters to make you go away."

-Elsa on what she learned from Anna
Admiral2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 07:03 PM   #55
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Genesis is amusing to me for one reason. Gates McFadden directed the episode and couldn't spend time behind the camera and in heavy makeup. So the solution? Have Worf spit acid on her face and stick her in a box for the whole episode.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 07:13 PM   #56
Vasquez Rocks
Commodore
 
Vasquez Rocks's Avatar
 
Location: Vasquez Rocks
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Do I dare say it? Ah hell, I find Imaginary Friend watchable. Not great, but not as horrible as it has been made out to be. The story of an alien seeing the crew from a child's perspective was kind of interesting. I thought Whoopi had a really nice scene with the little girl in Ten Forward and the ending while silly was also kind of sweet.

I can see the hate for the episode if you dislike shows focusing on children, but still I'd rather watch this then Realm of Fear, which on paper sounds like an interesting concept, but on screen ends up being one long technobabble borefest.
Vasquez Rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 07:26 PM   #57
Joel_Kirk
Rear Admiral
 
Joel_Kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' on Ligon II...
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Wow, what did I create?

Though the moderator requested this thread get back on track, I feel I should elaborate my point.

Code of Honor was an episode which featured an alien species with something the Enterprise crew desperately needed, but were characterized as stereotypically tribal and unreasonable, with the crew needing to jump through hoops to appease them. Separate from that fact, the director chose to cast the entire species with African actors. I believe the script mentioned only the bodyguards were African. Even if that casting change hadn't been made, it would have been considered an awful episode, but the racist casting took it to a new level.
I believe they were 'African American' actors - unless some of the performers actually were from the continent. It's like calling white actors - no matter where they are from - British actors. (It's is also the same with calling a black individual 'African American' even though there are black people from all areas of the world).

Now that I hear the fact that initially only the bodyguards were dark-skinned folk, I find that racist. Trek kinda followed that anyhow, specially in ENT where they only time you see actual black people or non-whites - aside from Travis and Hoshi - are the MACOs. (Of course, you don't hear anything about that!)

And, according to you, they - the Ligonians - were unreasonable. So, being reasonable would mean they are not stereotypes? (They are a proud and strong race like many other alien races in Star Trek, just because they didn't kowtow to Picard and his crew doesn't make them bad).
__________________
#BlackLivesMatter/#CrimingWhileWhite/#icantbreathe

Last edited by Joel_Kirk; July 31 2014 at 07:36 PM.
Joel_Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 07:36 PM   #58
Kobayshi Maru
Captain
 
Kobayshi Maru's Avatar
 
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Wow, what did I create?

Though the moderator requested this thread get back on track, I feel I should elaborate my point.

Code of Honor was an episode which featured an alien species with something the Enterprise crew desperately needed, but were characterized as stereotypically tribal and unreasonable, with the crew needing to jump through hoops to appease them. Separate from that fact, the director chose to cast the entire species with African actors. I believe the script mentioned only the bodyguards were African. Even if that casting change hadn't been made, it would have been considered an awful episode, but the racist casting took it to a new level.

A Night in Sickbay sticks out to me as being another awful episode featuring backwards and unreasonable aliens who have something that the Enterprise crew desperately needs, and so the crew needs to jump through hoops to appease them. Similar to Code of Honor in many ways. It is recognized as an awful episode on its own merits. I just thought out the idea that what if they had made the same casting blunder? It would have made an awful episode even worse because of the trope "unfortunate implications". That's all.
I agree that Code of Honor was an awful episode on many levels. One being that watching it, I kept asking myself: "What the hell does a people so retarded socially has to offer on a scientific level that could rival with star fleet and its enormous resources? " I just couldn't buy it. Things don't happen in a vacuum. Usually when a society is severely retarded in one of its aspects, it's not very advanced in the others. It's not a coincidence that Pasteur (which happens to be the name of Beverly's ship in the future part of the last episode of the series) lived in the most sophisticated part of Europe, that happened to be the first power of the world back then. So I can't believe for one second that a people that still practice, cruel, barbaric acts, as a matter of traditions could be this advanced in the domain of vaccines. Plus vaccines that can prevent diseases on other planets? Please!!
Kobayshi Maru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 07:36 PM   #59
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

From Memory Alpha:
In this episode, the entire humanoid population of the planet is portrayed by African-American performers. In the teleplay, however, only Lutan's guards were specifically written as being African.
The director was fired over this, and Les Landau directed the rest of the episode uncredited.

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
And, according to you, they - the Ligonians - were unreasonable. So, being reasonable would mean they are not stereotypes? (They are a proud and strong race like many other alien races in Star Trek, just because they didn't kowtow to Picard and his crew doesn't make them bad).
The unreasonable part referred to abducting a woman, and refusing to hand over precious medicine (or whatever it was) unless they let them keep her. Stereotype referred to the clothing and drum-beating, etc, things you would see in movies from the 1940s. Not mutually inclusive. They were written as unreasonable and portrayed as stereotypes.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31 2014, 07:46 PM   #60
Joel_Kirk
Rear Admiral
 
Joel_Kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' on Ligon II...
Re: Favourite Much-Maligned TNG Episodes

Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
jimbotron wrote: View Post
Wow, what did I create?

Though the moderator requested this thread get back on track, I feel I should elaborate my point.

Code of Honor was an episode which featured an alien species with something the Enterprise crew desperately needed, but were characterized as stereotypically tribal and unreasonable, with the crew needing to jump through hoops to appease them. Separate from that fact, the director chose to cast the entire species with African actors. I believe the script mentioned only the bodyguards were African. Even if that casting change hadn't been made, it would have been considered an awful episode, but the racist casting took it to a new level.

A Night in Sickbay sticks out to me as being another awful episode featuring backwards and unreasonable aliens who have something that the Enterprise crew desperately needs, and so the crew needs to jump through hoops to appease them. Similar to Code of Honor in many ways. It is recognized as an awful episode on its own merits. I just thought out the idea that what if they had made the same casting blunder? It would have made an awful episode even worse because of the trope "unfortunate implications". That's all.
I agree that Code of Honor was an awful episode on many levels. One being that watching it, I kept asking myself: "What the hell does a people so retarded socially has to offer on a scientific level that could rival with star fleet and its enormous resources? " I just couldn't buy it. Things don't happen in a vacuum. Usually when a society is severely retarded in one of its aspects, it's not very advanced in the others. It's not a coincidence that Pasteur (which happens to be the name of Beverly's ship in the future part of the last episode of the series) lived in the most sophisticated part of Europe, that happened to be the first power of the world back then. So I can't believe for one second that a people that still practice, cruel, barbaric acts, as a matter of traditions could be this advanced in the domain of vaccines. Plus vaccines that can cure diseases on other planets? Please!!
Well, an alien race not fully realized isn't synonymous with 'Code of Honor.' For example, the Talosians (from TOS) and their intentions weren't clearly written. And, I'm sure I can find other examples throughout the franchise.

And, it's interesting you say the Ligionians practice barbaric acts, when we've seen Vulcans do the pon farr ritual in 'Amok Time' (considered one of the best TOS episodes, where the ritual is considered 'logical') and Andorians fight for their honor as seen in the ENT episode 'United.'

Certain rituals shouldn't be considered 'barbaric' based on the skin tone of the people overlooking said rituals.

jimbotron wrote: View Post
From Memory Alpha:
In this episode, the entire humanoid population of the planet is portrayed by African-American performers. In the teleplay, however, only Lutan's guards were specifically written as being African.
The director was fired over this, and Les Landau directed the rest of the episode uncredited.
Thank you for that, Jimbotron...

The writers/producers should have definitely expanded on Ligon II in later seasons. Too, the fact that Les Landau continued with the direction, with the same cast, shows that there was probably something else going on behind-the-scenes that wasn't made public.

jimbotron wrote: View Post
The unreasonable part referred to abducting a woman, and refusing to hand over precious medicine (or whatever it was) unless they let them keep her. Stereotype referred to the clothing and drum-beating, etc, things you would see in movies from the 1940s. Not mutually inclusive. They were written as unreasonable and portrayed as stereotypes.
Hmmm, so apparently 'Drumline' with Nick Cannon was racist because it was about a band of young African Americans banging drums in a high school competition.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303933/

Apparently, 'Mambo Kings' was racist because you had Afro-Cubans banging drums (if I remember correctly) creating and dancing to salsa music.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104802/

Not too mention, I'm sure college Ethnic Centers - such as what I involved in at UC Santa Cruz, when I was a student from 2011 to 2012 - were racist because there are those who put on performances of either African dance or historical performances of the African American experience in America.
__________________
#BlackLivesMatter/#CrimingWhileWhite/#icantbreathe

Last edited by Joel_Kirk; July 31 2014 at 08:14 PM.
Joel_Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.