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Old July 29 2014, 05:43 PM   #1
Joel_Kirk
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What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

Blame Deviantart and the talented artists...and even, somewhat, blame 'Star Trek Online.'

I noticed that there were anatomically exaggerated or fantasy depictions of many familiar females from the various races of Trek, including Romulan, Vulcan, Andorian, Orion, Trill. Many of these depictions have females with large boobs, amazing curves, gorgeous facial features, etc...etc..etc...

In Star Trek Online, I can kinda tell the guys who are playing female toons. Usually, those toons would also have big boobs (I was probably guilty of that myself with a toon) however, I've also noticed that the some of the guys playing said toons tend to have their toons dressed in such a way that they are 'tough' and maybe covered from head to toe. (Not saying that having female characters dressed in a skirt or revealing clothes is bad, just saying that there is a variation of how said toons are clothed based on gender).

With that said:
Interestingly, those female toons I've seen portrayed by girls are usually dressed in a 'cute' manner, and set to pose in a 'cute' manner. A few times I've seen female toons dressed in very revealing - bikini-like - outfits with their female non-playing-characters (or NPC's) dressed similar.

Now you may be asking: How can you actually tell who is behind the toon on STO? (Believe me, when you 1. Spend a lot of time 'reading' people offline and online. 2. Have general life experience, and 3. Is a writer... you know...)

One Deviantartist had a young Andorian girl, Starfleet Officer, who was drawn with lighter blue skin. His note was that she spent her time around humans, so she wanted to fit in....(Obviously, she spent time around white humans...)

Race and gender issues still seem to be present in Kirks era as well as Picard/Sisko/Janeway's...era (e.g. Star Trek Ongoing #29, Star Trek VI, DS9 episode: 'Badda-Boom Badda-Bing,' the novel Crisis on Centaurus and I'm sure there others). And, I don't doubt that Archer's era had race issues among humans going on....just look at his crew makeup! Not too mention Shran refers to humans overall as 'pinkskins.' Ignoring anyone else with darker skin tones - it's like someone viewing an American as primarily a white person.

Going back to the female Andorian, I see something similar - wanting to fit in due to racial standards in our society - happening today. However, I also wonder how Vulcan, Romulan, Orion, or even Klingon women would immerse themselves in our culture? And, how they would be affected by the Euro-centric standards of beauty juxtaposed with their own respective cultures? Also, how would they be affected by our society and its racial/gender standards? What if these alien women were in our time, not exactly 23rd or 24th or (when STO takes place) the 25th century?

No doubt because of the 'exotic' factor, there would be human men of various races who would immediately be attracted to these women. On the other hand, I'm sure the men of the 'alien' races probably wouldn't mind to a degree unless they were being competed against. For example, you only see Andorian women in movies - not exactly holonovels, since we're not in that era - with primarily human men or human men of a certain race.

I'm also thinking of the show Alien Nation based off of the film, as well as District 9. The thing is: The former has aliens that were primarily slaves, if I remember correctly, and latter were refugees. Of course, while there were humanoid women in Alien Nation that had relations with human men, the aliens in District 9 looked like large sentient bugs, and were regulated to ghettos - no sexy women there for human men to drool over.

Lastly, what would human women think? I'm sure there will be some who would go for Vulcan men, maybe Andorian men, or what have you. I'm sure there'll be some feminist statements made (the wrong kind, not the good kind) and so forth.

(Sidenote scenario: I'm just thinking of a teenaged Klingon female, augmented, who might have been disrespected by a young human male. And, her father, a Klingon in a high position, seeks out this human male and nearly kills him. Or, maybe she does, and he backs her up believing that she acted admirably as a Klingon, possibly sending the Earth into a war).
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Old July 29 2014, 06:14 PM   #2
T'Girl
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Many of these depictions have females with large boobs, amazing curves, gorgeous facial features, etc.
How is different than the Fantasy males on deviant art with straping muscles, perfect skin, fashion model hair, six pack tummys and the occasional 12 inch penis?

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Old July 29 2014, 06:23 PM   #3
Melakon
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Many of these depictions have females with large boobs, amazing curves, gorgeous facial features, etc.
How is different than the Fantasy males on deviant art with straping muscles, perfect skin, fashion model hair, six pack tummys and the occasional 12 inch penis?

Yeah, it's near impossible to fit one of those into a tiny leather loincloth.
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Old July 29 2014, 06:26 PM   #4
Joel_Kirk
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Many of these depictions have females with large boobs, amazing curves, gorgeous facial features, etc.
How is different than the Fantasy males on deviant art with straping muscles, perfect skin, fashion model hair, six pack tummys and the occasional 12 inch penis?

True...true..


Melakon wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Many of these depictions have females with large boobs, amazing curves, gorgeous facial features, etc.
How is different than the Fantasy males on deviant art with straping muscles, perfect skin, fashion model hair, six pack tummys and the occasional 12 inch penis?

Yeah, it's near impossible to fit one of those into a tiny leather loincloth.
lol...
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Old July 29 2014, 06:52 PM   #5
borgboy
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

Not all men are objectifying alien women. Some of us are objectifying alien men. Same goes for women too.

It makes me think a bit about a comment made by a game master that I played a lot of rpgs with years ago, how most guys when they made female characters would make a sex fantasy character, with an emphasis on sex and scanty clothes, while I played well rounded complex female characters - but that my female characters tended to be a bit more "dramatic" than female characters played by female players.

It's interesting to imagine what a relationship with an alien would be like, there would be a lot of cultural differences. On Trek all the "humanoid" races had a lot of attractive representations of both genders. A Vulcan would be too unemotional for me. Klingons too aggressive. Andorian, Trill, Bajoran, even Andorian, I could see the appeal.
And Vulcan men can be very attractive *Reboot Spock* yes.
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Old July 29 2014, 06:54 PM   #6
grendelsbayne
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Race and gender issues still seem to be present in Kirks era as well as Picard/Sisko/Janeway's...era (e.g. Star Trek Ongoing #29, Star Trek VI, DS9 episode: 'Badda-Boom Badda-Bing,' the novel Crisis on Centaurus and I'm sure there others). And, I don't doubt that Archer's era had race issues among humans going on....just look at his crew makeup! Not too mention Shran refers to humans overall as 'pinkskins.' Ignoring anyone else with darker skin tones - it's like someone viewing an American as primarily a white person.
I'd say the real problem with that term isn't necessarily racist overtones as much as that it makes no sense - Vulcans are just Humans with pointy ears, and the Andorians have known the Vulcans for some time. It what way does it make sense for them to fixate on the pink skin instead anything else about the humans they meet?

But if it weren't for that, I think the term would make a reasonable amount of sense, as long as the first contact between Humans and Andorians happened in such a way that the pink skin was prominent enough. It would be roughly analogous to foreigners referring to Dutch traders as 'Hollanders' without regard for where in the Netherlands they actual come from.

Certainly if an Andorian ship as typically portrayed made contact with us tomorrow, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find people calling them 'bluefaces' or 'antenna heads', and even if we found out after the fact that there are other andorian races with different skin colors or practically non-existent antennae, the names would probably still stick.
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Old July 29 2014, 08:09 PM   #7
T'Girl
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

Perhaps given the cold of Andorian's natural environment, their eyes use the infra-red part of the spectrum.

To an Andorian all Humans, regardless of race, are "pink skins."

With their higher body temps, Vulcans are "red skins."

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Old July 29 2014, 08:18 PM   #8
JirinPanthosa
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

I think in the real world if there were alien women who look and feel similar enough to humans to fornicate with them, but were not genetically similar enough to reproduce with them, then within a few generations humans would evolve to no longer find them attractive. (Just because humans who didn't find them attractive would reproduce more.)

I think many humans might have one night stands with aliens but most would end up having long term relationships with other humans just because of cultural similarity. I'd totally go for a Klingon woman. I think I'd enjoy the kind of sex where you end up in traction.

Also, if there were a ship of Star Trek aliens who crashed on Earth and were forced to settle here I think it'd be similar to the way humans adapt when they immigrate to other countries. The first generation people who came as adults would learn as much of the language and assimilate as much as they needed to in order to get by, whereas the second generation people or people who came over as kids would assimilate with Earth culture and socialize outside their circles more while still having special unique ties with their first generation families, then third generation people would be completely assimilated.

My estimation of human reaction to meeting Trek aliens.
1) Holy crap, are they trying to kill us?!
2) Ok, they're not. Cool, aliens!
3) Wait a minute, these aliens are TIKIN 'R JIBS!
4) Hey, cool, all this technology they brought to Earth is creating more jobs and making my life more comfortable. Yay aliens!

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Old July 29 2014, 09:01 PM   #9
Joel_Kirk
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

borgboy wrote: View Post
Not all men are objectifying alien women. Some of us are objectifying alien men. Same goes for women too.
True....true...

It makes me think a bit about a comment made by a game master that I played a lot of rpgs with years ago, how most guys when they made female characters would make a sex fantasy character, with an emphasis on sex and scanty clothes, while I played well rounded complex female characters - but that my female characters tended to be a bit more "dramatic" than female characters played by female players.

It's interesting to imagine what a relationship with an alien would be like, there would be a lot of cultural differences. On Trek all the "humanoid" races had a lot of attractive representations of both genders. A Vulcan would be too unemotional for me. Klingons too aggressive. Andorian, Trill, Bajoran, even Andorian, I could see the appeal.
And Vulcan men can be very attractive *Reboot Spock* yes.


grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Race and gender issues still seem to be present in Kirks era as well as Picard/Sisko/Janeway's...era (e.g. Star Trek Ongoing #29, Star Trek VI, DS9 episode: 'Badda-Boom Badda-Bing,' the novel Crisis on Centaurus and I'm sure there others). And, I don't doubt that Archer's era had race issues among humans going on....just look at his crew makeup! Not too mention Shran refers to humans overall as 'pinkskins.' Ignoring anyone else with darker skin tones - it's like someone viewing an American as primarily a white person.
I'd say the real problem with that term isn't necessarily racist overtones as much as that it makes no sense - Vulcans are just Humans with pointy ears, and the Andorians have known the Vulcans for some time. It what way does it make sense for them to fixate on the pink skin instead anything else about the humans they meet?

But if it weren't for that, I think the term would make a reasonable amount of sense, as long as the first contact between Humans and Andorians happened in such a way that the pink skin was prominent enough. It would be roughly analogous to foreigners referring to Dutch traders as 'Hollanders' without regard for where in the Netherlands they actual come from.

Certainly if an Andorian ship as typically portrayed made contact with us tomorrow, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find people calling them 'bluefaces' or 'antenna heads', and even if we found out after the fact that there are other andorian races with different skin colors or practically non-existent antennae, the names would probably still stick.
But, then, if Archer was a black man the term 'pinkskin' would be silly. Shran calling Sisko a 'pinkskin' would probably get a look, then a comment that corrects the Andorian. Again, Archer's ship complement - for whatever reason - was majority white even though, in the 22nd century, you would think that the crew would have different faces and be a lot more diverse. With Travis Mayweather sitting in the front, you would think that the Andorian would see that there are variations in humans...

Note: Out-of-universe, we do know why Archer's crew complement was majority white. In-universe we are not told why, even though the Earth has supposed come together in harmony....yada...yada...yada...

Too, even the Vulcans have dark-skinned folk, so we can't say Shran and his Andorian folk are that misinformed. It makes him and his folk come off kinda dumb. Unless he sees himself with having bad experiences with 'pinkskins' in general, and had a different experience with brownskins, greenskins, and so forth...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Perhaps given the cold of Andorian's natural environment, their eyes use the infra-red part of the spectrum.

To an Andorian all Humans, regardless of race, are "pink skins."

With their higher body temps, Vulcans are "red skins."

I can imagine having a personal conversation where an Andorian uses the term 'pinkskins.:' I would be quick to tell that misinformed Andorian - also pointing to my dark chocolate complexion - that 'I'm no pinkskin.' I would say that humans come in all shades, not just one.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post

I think many humans might have one night stands with aliens but most would end up having long term relationships with other humans just because of cultural similarity. I'd totally go for a Klingon woman. I think I'd enjoy the kind of sex where you end up in traction.

Also, if there were a ship of Star Trek aliens who crashed on Earth and were forced to settle here I think it'd be similar to the way humans adapt when they immigrate to other countries. The first generation people who came as adults would learn as much of the language and assimilate as much as they needed to in order to get by, whereas the second generation people or people who came over as kids would assimilate with Earth culture and socialize outside their circles more while still having special unique ties with their first generation families, then third generation people would be completely assimilated.
Very true.
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Old July 30 2014, 12:41 AM   #10
AgentCoop
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

Did Shran ever refer to anyone but Archer as "pinkskin"?
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Old July 30 2014, 01:10 AM   #11
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

"Do not push the pink skins to the thin ice"
~Shran
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Old July 30 2014, 02:02 AM   #12
LordMudd
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

1. We do not have a eurocentric view of beauty. It would be nice if we did, they are much more accepting of what a real woman looks like. The view we embrace here, unfortunately, was programmed into us by the media. Skinny little stick girls. (Would that make it Mediacentric?)

2. Was Shran on the bridge, Did he see Mayweather? Did he know he was human or assume that maybe he was from another planet? So far as I know, these issues never came up, nor would there be time for them in a 1 hour episode.

Personally, I like the idea. I would want to experience as many of them as I could. In fact I recall an early episode where they went to Rigel and saw some alien dancers and Phlox had to warn them it would be lethal for humans to engage in sex with that species. Point is, the humans were interested. I think that the less racist you are, the more likely you are to be at the forefront of exploration.

CCC.
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Old July 30 2014, 08:33 AM   #13
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

LordMudd wrote: View Post
1. We do not have a eurocentric view of beauty. It would be nice if we did, they are much more accepting of what a real woman looks like. The view we embrace here, unfortunately, was programmed into us by the media. Skinny little stick girls. (Would that make it Mediacentric?)
You do not seem to understand what the word "Eurocentric" means.

It doesn't mean "related to how modern Europeans think;" it means, "an assumption, often unconscious, that the skin tones of the peoples native to Europe are the default setting for what a person ought to look like."
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Old July 30 2014, 08:40 AM   #14
Joel_Kirk
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

LordMudd wrote: View Post
1. We do not have a eurocentric view of beauty. It would be nice if we did, they are much more accepting of what a real woman looks like. The view we embrace here, unfortunately, was programmed into us by the media. Skinny little stick girls. (Would that make it Mediacentric?)

2. Was Shran on the bridge, Did he see Mayweather? Did he know he was human or assume that maybe he was from another planet? So far as I know, these issues never came up, nor would there be time for them in a 1 hour episode.

Personally, I like the idea. I would want to experience as many of them as I could. In fact I recall an early episode where they went to Rigel and saw some alien dancers and Phlox had to warn them it would be lethal for humans to engage in sex with that species. Point is, the humans were interested. I think that the less racist you are, the more likely you are to be at the forefront of exploration.

CCC.
Shran was on Enterprise for more than an hour of the show. I'm sure he would have seen Mayweather's dark-skin, or Hoshi's Asian features to see a difference in humans.

Sci wrote: View Post
LordMudd wrote: View Post
1. We do not have a eurocentric view of beauty. It would be nice if we did, they are much more accepting of what a real woman looks like. The view we embrace here, unfortunately, was programmed into us by the media. Skinny little stick girls. (Would that make it Mediacentric?)
You do not seem to understand what the word "Eurocentric" means.

It doesn't mean "related to how modern Europeans think;" it means, "an assumption, often unconscious, that the skin tones of the peoples native to Europe are the default setting for what a person ought to look like."
Bingo...
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Old July 30 2014, 08:56 AM   #15
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Re: What if? - Andorian, Vulcan, Romulan, Orion Women in Our Time.

Ithekro wrote: View Post
"Do not push the pink skins to the thin ice"
~Shran
Yeah, but since when was Mayweather pink? Once again, in Trek, caucasians = most humans.
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