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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 29 2014, 05:14 PM   #16
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Ithekro wrote: View Post
It might also be that by the time I first saw the Franz Joseph ships I had already watched The Wrath of Kahn, in which USS Reliant has no obvious navigation deflector dish.

That case is either a new technology or a continuity error.
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Old July 29 2014, 06:17 PM   #17
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

I'm sorry at how ignorant this sounds, but what was the big blue dome that the Enterprise blew up after they used the prefix code to lower Reliant's shields? I always thought it was the "dish equivilant" that the Enterprise had in the movies. How it would work on the dorsal surface instead of facing forward is another thing, but I thought it worked that way somehow.
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Old July 29 2014, 06:20 PM   #18
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
drt wrote: View Post
I also don't think the secondary hull dish became the navigational deflector dish until around Phase II/TMP, as the original "Making of" Jefferies diagram labelled it the "Main Sensor".
Great catch; I forgot about that. Of course, if any drawing needs to be retconned, it's that one. And I think "The Paradise Syndrome" did intend the big dish to be the deflector, so it's really just the one drawing that's off.
I wonder if there was ever any internal discussion during production on where the beam should originate?

I half-suspect if they had paid for that special effect shot it would have come out of the bottom of the saucer like everything else.
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Old July 29 2014, 07:16 PM   #19
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Marsden wrote: View Post
I'm sorry at how ignorant this sounds, but what was the big blue dome that the Enterprise blew up after they used the prefix code to lower Reliant's shields? I always thought it was the "dish equivilant" that the Enterprise had in the movies. How it would work on the dorsal surface instead of facing forward is another thing, but I thought it worked that way somehow.
You mean towards the rear of the ship?
http://www.thelightworks.com/models/.../reliant15.jpg

That's often referred to as the impulse deflection crystal. An engine component.
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Old July 29 2014, 09:03 PM   #20
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

In the NX-01 rear pod, the dome that looks like that is supposed to be manipulating or stabilizing the warp field for the high performance introduced in the warp five engine. Like "impulse deflection crystal", it's technobabble that is never heard or seen onscreen.

We know that blowing up the thing didn't stop the Reliant from doing better impulse than the Enterprise. Whether the two ships retained warp capability, we don't know - but if one did, the other must have, too, as both reached Regula One at roughly the same time, not decades apart. (Of course, the Reliant has two of the domes; the one beneath the ship did not get visibly hit or damaged.)

Speaking of the belly of the ship, some fan publications suggest deflectors located there. There are certainly plenty of greeblies that could be assigned this role, but the cleverest idea IMHO is that two deflectors actually flip down in warp, the way some sports car headlights flip up. We never really see a ship of this class at warp from below, so two blue-glowing slits staring ahead from beneath the hull is a distinct possibility.

That's just the unused intruder alert display from TMP.
And checking intruder control systems would be a reasonable element in a minor increase in alert status; yellow alert in general appears to involve preparing for action but not so much that one would appear to be initiating it (say, not raising shields, and not arming weapons).

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Old July 29 2014, 10:25 PM   #21
Ithekro
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

I seem to recall that after the crystal was blown up, the report to Kahn was that Kirk had damaged the photon controls and the warp drive. The crystal is on top of the intermix shaft on the Enterprise, so we can assume it is also part of the Reliant's warp drive systems. This mainly means that Reliant cannot immediately warp away from Enterprise (which then limps to Regula I), but because one can assume Reliant's warp drive is similar to Enterprise's refit configuration, it means that the phasers have been automatically cut off. With the warp drive and photon controls out, Reliant has no weapons, while Enterprise can still fire a few shots, and possibly arm and fire the photon torpedoes.
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Old July 29 2014, 10:42 PM   #22
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

The crystal is on top of the intermix shaft on the Enterprise
Well, not according to ST:TMP, where the shaft is located relatively far aft as evidenced by a long corridor extending forward from Main Engineering...

The crystal isn't atop the warp core of NX-01, either, and apparently not atop the core of the Excelsior (especially in the later version that has two crystals) or the Defiant (which has eight).

because one can assume Reliant's warp drive is similar to Enterprise's refit configuration, it means that the phasers have been automatically cut off
...But Kirk was firing his phasers from "batteries", according to Scotty, not from the warp power system as in ST:TMP. If this type of improvement was introduced to the Reliant as well, Khan isn't unarmed; he just isn't armed to overwhelming superiority any more.

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Old July 29 2014, 11:10 PM   #23
Ithekro
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

I'm not sure what you mean by the long corridor forward of Main Engineering.

There is no crystal on the NX, or Defiant. Excelsior has one, and it can still be part of the warp intermix system (which in the movie days, doesn't seem to need to be a straight line like the TNG days) The crystal's purpose being something to do with moving power from the warp system to the impulse system.

Scotty also needed a bit to get those batteries to fire the phasers. As Decker said, the phasers automatically cut out when the warp power goes out. That doesn't mean they can't bypass it, but that takes time. Scott is very experienced with bypassing systems and has a cadet crew that has been learning all about they systems, so they are up to speed on things. Kahn's crew is inexperienced, and untrained. It would take longer to get their phasers back online, giving Enterprise time to rough them up even more if they stayed. They do repair it later over Regula before going to attempt an intercept on Enterprise (after getting the Genesis device and leaving Kirk behind).
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Old July 30 2014, 01:54 AM   #24
diankra
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

I suspect that I'm not the only one here who's used slightly different shorthand when talking to the boss who's asking, basically "Can we do this?" and doesn't need to knwo the specifics, and the department you're running (who know more about the technicalities and are asking "Ok, which technique are we going to use to do the thing you just told the boss we can do.")
So when Scotty's being a command line officer and talking to Kirk, it'd make sense that he'd just talk about the shields as shorthand (with Kirk and Spock knowing from their earlier experience that there was a lot more to it than that, but that they could trust Scotty to deal with it); in the rarely seen discussions with his staff he'd be a lot more precise about referring to the screens, shields, deflectors or whatever other options the engineering staff has to do the stuff that gets shorthanded into "SHIELDS!" on the bridge.

And occasionally, he'll slip and talk about the screens while on the bridge, because that's the particular options they're using on this occasion.
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Old July 30 2014, 01:54 AM   #25
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

And how do we know which direction that shaft was going relative to the exterior of the ship...?
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Old July 30 2014, 03:34 AM   #26
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
And how do we know which direction that shaft was going relative to the exterior of the ship...?
One part of the Reliant engine shaft is vertical.
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Old July 30 2014, 09:14 AM   #27
Timo
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Ithekro wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by the long corridor forward of Main Engineering.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0430.jpg

The corridor from which Kirk is arriving runs from bow to stern, both in terms of how the set was built and how it was photographed. It truncates at the front "pressure door" of Main Engineering. To add insult to injury, it is also extended by a matte painting, as can be seen - poorly so, giving the "floor" an upward kink where the matte begins.

But it is eminently logical for Kirk to reach Main Engineering from this direction: he has recently been to the Main Bridge, which is upward and forward of Main Engineering, and a vertical turboshaft coming from the saucer would logically run along the very forwardmost path available in the neck. (Perhaps this shaft is what we see highlighted in light green on the hull paint, now that it cannot be the intermix shaft?)

There is no crystal on the NX
Sure there is.

http://www.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...rprise/NX1.jpg

In terms of blue glow, there might even be three - two more atop the booms, at the "turbochargers". Although those were usually not intended to glow.

or Defiant
Well, there are four round things per side that glow dim blue.

http://trekcore.com/gallery/albums/u...ontact0135.jpg

Excelsior has one
In ST3; in ST6, she has changed for two smaller ones. Both versions of the ship are witnessed performing various TNG and DS9 Excelsior class duties, because some early stock footage was filmed with the single crystal, while later shots used the modified model. The smaller model built for VOY uses the two-dome configuration, as does at least one CGI model.

and it can still be part of the warp intermix system (which in the movie days, doesn't seem to need to be a straight line like the TNG days)
Oh, most definitely. Although in TNG, the "shafts" tend to be very short even if ramrod-straight, and therefore a TNG style arrangement would be fine for ST:TMP as well.

The crystal's purpose being something to do with moving power from the warp system to the impulse system.
Or then not.

Scotty also needed a bit to get those batteries to fire the phasers. As Decker said, the phasers automatically cut out when the warp power goes out. That doesn't mean they can't bypass it, but that takes time.
Only in TMP. And firing phasers when warp is out for the count has always been possible in all of the shows, starting with TOS; it's an exotic quirk of the first movie only that the ship would have any sort of a limitation in this respect, and it logically should be corrected ASAP by Starfleet engineers.

Scott is very experienced with bypassing systems and has a cadet crew that has been learning all about they systems, so they are up to speed on things. Kahn's crew is inexperienced, and untrained. It would take longer to get their phasers back online, giving Enterprise time to rough them up even more if they stayed. They do repair it later over Regula before going to attempt an intercept on Enterprise (after getting the Genesis device and leaving Kirk behind).
I wouldn't credit Scotty's cadets with the ability to straighten a bent paper clip. OTOH Scotty would have a dozen things to worry about after Khan's first shots, rerouting of phasers possibly not being much of a priority (because the skipper keeps yelling for SHIELDS, not weapons, and there's a big hull leak and whatnot).

It's theoretically possible that both ships lost all weapons capability for a moment. But neither crew comments on such a thing happening, and this is not something required by the plotline or the background treknologies.

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Old July 30 2014, 09:31 AM   #28
USS KG5
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

Timo wrote: View Post
...But Kirk was firing his phasers from "batteries", according to Scotty, not from the warp power system as in ST:TMP. If this type of improvement was introduced to the Reliant as well, Khan isn't unarmed; he just isn't armed to overwhelming superiority any more.

Timo Saloniemi
Well they do say "we can't fire" - possibly without a Scotty in Engineering (or near engineering) carefully husbanding the remaining resources, Reliant just can't get a salvo off straight away.

They also as you say had no idea what Kirk had left in the tank, a few torpedoes would have left Reliant in a worse state than Enterprise.
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Old July 30 2014, 10:07 AM   #29
Ithekro
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

I would think the Enterprise's engine style (the phasers being boosted by the warp drive) and the automatic cut out would be a side effect/feature for those ships with that engine design. It would be corrected/changed with the next design of engine (USS Enterprise-A's larger core and USS Excelsior's transwarp drvie), but the USS Enterprise and USS Reliant are stuck with it as they have more or less the same setup. It does not mean the phaser cannot ever be used (once one can get power back into them), but they would no longer have the warp power feed into them to boost their power (the 24th century USS Defient has a similar setup of boosting phaser power as per Kira's description to Thomas Riker. It isn't clear if the loss of warp power will also cut out the phasers on those ship for a short time). One would imagine that emergency power would be able to get the phasers to work, but it would require someone that knows the system to do it. Scotty knows the system, and has had over a decade to play with it. Khan's people do not and had maybe a few days to mess with the ship. Scott's cadets have been learning the systems backwards and forwards for their classes, so they would at least know what they are using. Kahn's people have, at best, technical journals about older Federation starships.

Also the implication from the line about them not being able to fire because Kirk had knocked out the photon controls and the warp drive is that Kahn's ship now has no weapons. This would make sense since the pervious film showed that with warp power out, the phasers cut out. This would logically only happen to Federation ships between The Motion Picture and Star Trek IV. After that things are different.

The corridor from which Kirk is arriving runs from bow to stern, both in terms of how the set was built and how it was photographed. It truncates at the front "pressure door" of Main Engineering. To add insult to injury, it is also extended by a matte painting, as can be seen - poorly so, giving the "floor" an upward kink where the matte begins.

But it is eminently logical for Kirk to reach Main Engineering from this direction: he has recently been to the Main Bridge, which is upward and forward of Main Engineering, and a vertical turboshaft coming from the saucer would logically run along the very forwardmost path available in the neck. (Perhaps this shaft is what we see highlighted in light green on the hull paint, now that it cannot be the intermix shaft?)
Well then were is the intermix shaft?

As for the rest, I would equate them to different design styles and move on, leaving Enterprise and Reliant (with maybe Excelsior) in a grouping of similar designs with the crystal near their impulse decks that supposedly redirect warp power to the impulse units. Why it needs to be exposed and large on the ship is unclear.
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Old July 30 2014, 11:37 AM   #30
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Re: Deflectors vs Sheilds

There's nothing to say the intermix shaft that connects to the Impulse Engines looks anything like the blue perspex one we see in the "Main Engineering" set. Indeed, since it wouldn't need to carry anywhere near the same levels of power as the ones which feed the warp engines I would expect such a shaft to be smaller.

As to its location, the diagonal aft dorsal seems most logical. There's even a vent present part way up in case of an overload
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