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Old July 22 2014, 10:59 AM   #16
Khan 2.0
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

Christopher wrote: View Post
By the way, it's Rod Serling, not Sterling.
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Old July 22 2014, 01:26 PM   #17
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

CaliburnCY wrote: View Post
I don't think this significantly changes your overall point, Christopher, that people who weren't previously fans like Nicholas Meyer and many others can do justice to Trek; I just think it's an important factoid where Harve Bennett's Trek affiliation is concerned.
Thanks for the clarification. I'll have to remember that so I don't make that mistake again. But I think it reinforces my point: Filmmakers don't work in a vacuum. Even if the director of a Trek film isn't a fan, he's working with other people who are -- Bennett for Meyer, Orci and Lindelof for Abrams. Between that and the fact that research is a thing that exists, it's doubly nonsensical to claim that only an established fan of a franchise can direct a good film therein.

And I still say that being too much of a fan can be a bad thing for a director, because it can blind them to their indulgences and lead them to value nostalgia over originality. Superman Returns was a disappointment because it was just a very expensive Richard Donner fan film rather than a fresh new approach to the concept. And Into Darkness's biggest problems were its fannish indulgences, the intrusive homages to TWOK. The fact that Roberto Orci is a rabid Trek fan is the main thing that makes me wary of the idea of letting him direct the third film.
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Old July 22 2014, 03:20 PM   #18
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

Christopher wrote: View Post
...

And I still say that being too much of a fan can be a bad thing for a director, because it can blind them to their indulgences and lead them to value nostalgia over originality. Superman Returns was a disappointment because it was just a very expensive Richard Donner fan film rather than a fresh new approach to the concept. And Into Darkness's biggest problems were its fannish indulgences, the intrusive homages to TWOK. The fact that Roberto Orci is a rabid Trek fan is the main thing that makes me wary of the idea of letting him direct the third film.
Superman Returns didn't fail because it was a fan film, it failed because it sucked. Superman was a peeping tom, a bit of an antagonist (his fortress of solitude's lack of security allowed Luther to ravage costal states and right after the world accepted they didn't need Superman too), he was conveniently immune to Kryptonite (which was inside of him), and to this day, I still have no idea why Lex didn't cut off Superman's head when he had a chance.

Deleted Superman Returns scene:
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Minion: Um, boss, why did you just throw Superman off of that cliff?
Luther: I stabbed him first.
Minion: Yeah, once. We were physically able to beat him up. We could have found some kryptonite clubs nearby and beaten him into a fine paste and then removed his head to be sure. Now all this uncertainty is bothering me.
Luther: What's the worst that could happen?

(Ground starts to shake)

Minion: *sigh* And honestly boss, did you really think the nations of the world would let you keep this island, especially after they find out you knew the creation of this island would destroy the existing lands around it? I mean, America has invaded countries for far less.
Luther: You're pretty smart for a minion.

(Then a bolder falls on the minion before he could make more sense.)

Last edited by bbjeg; July 22 2014 at 03:33 PM.
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Old July 22 2014, 03:29 PM   #19
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

But I do think that one of Superman Returns's failings is that it coasted rather too heavily on nostalgia for the 1978 film. Sure, I got all choked up and misty-eyed when the old John Williams theme kicked in, but I imagine that much of the movie fell flat for modern audiences, who hadn't been weaned on the Reeve movies.

And, yeah, the idea that you have to be a lifelong fan to do justice to some beloved franchise is just silly. As Christopher noted, research is a thing that exists.
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Old July 22 2014, 03:40 PM   #20
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

In Luthor's defense, he couldn't possibly have anticipated that a man who was weakened by the proximity of kryptonite would be able to lift an entire land mass made of kryptonite over his head and throw it into space, because that would be completely self-contradictory and ridiculous.

As for the Williams theme, I rather hated SR's use of it. Because it didn't do anything interesting with it, didn't do variations or adaptations of it to suit the action, just mechanically quoted the basic theme whenever Superman did anything super. The previous composers who'd worked with the Williams theme -- Ken Thorne and Alexander Courage -- both found far more interesting ways to play around with it than John Ottman did (or was allowed to do by Singer?).
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Old July 22 2014, 04:10 PM   #21
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Also, this thread sounds like it should be in the General Trek forum (maybe Miscellaneous).
Yeah, this topic is all over the map. Star Trek, ST Films, Outer Limits, Twilight Zone...now we're on to Superman.

It should go somewhere, I'm just not sure where...

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Old July 22 2014, 04:19 PM   #22
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

1001001 wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
Also, this thread sounds like it should be in the General Trek forum (maybe Miscellaneous).
Yeah, this topic is all over the map. Star Trek, ST Films, Outer Limits, Twilight Zone...now we're on to Superman.

It should go somewhere, I'm just not sure where...

Maybe the Phantom Zone . . .
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Old July 22 2014, 04:48 PM   #23
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

SF/Fantasy, maybe, but not Miscellaneous.

But the Superman Returns discussion isn't completely off-topic, since Bryan Singer is developing a new Twilight Zone revival. Although there hasn't been much news about that project lately, so it might be stalled.
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Old July 22 2014, 05:40 PM   #24
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

Sorry for my part in taking the thread further off topic. I'm still learning how things work here, so I don't know if splitting threads is normal here or not, but if a Moderator wanted to split the posts into two threads, I think the split threads could form two coherent lines of conversation:

1) Which episodes of Star Trek: The Original Series are most like the Twilight Zone? Around this, there was also a bit of relevant discussion about The Outer Limits as well.

2) A side conversation beginning with post #5 and continued in its replies (#9, 15, 17-20) about non-fans making films. This is where the TWOK and Superman Returns discussions come in.

On topic, I'm no expert on The Twilight Zone, but I would agree that Spectre of the Gun is an episode of Star Trek: The Original Series that has a Twilight Zone-esque feeling to it. Maybe The Return of the Archons, too.

Last edited by CaliburnCY; July 23 2014 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Changed "The Original Series" to "Star Trek: The Original Series" to prevent confusion
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Old July 22 2014, 08:10 PM   #25
1001001
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

I think we'll just send it over to our pals in SFF...
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Old July 23 2014, 02:15 AM   #26
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Re: most 'Twilight Zone' episodes..

on the OT, back in 96, I interviewed Brannon Braga and he said he wanted to write Trek a bit like the Twilight Zone. Looking at Frame of Mind and some Voyager I can see it, but including the particle sweep cure for the oddness does tend to undermine it.
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