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Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

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Old July 23 2014, 03:50 AM   #31
austen_pierce
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
austen_pierce wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
In this theory we account for why NX-01 is so advanced compared to TOS
The technology in most people's living rooms an home offices is advanced compared to TOS. We are at odds with ourselves when demanding that TOS remain exactly as filmed in the 1960s AND that ENT show us something credible from the future.
"In a Mirror, Darkly" has the MU crew amazed by the USS Defiant. It's not less advanced at all - to them, TOS is amazing futuristic technology-meets-art. It neatly explains why every Trek looks the way it does, from the bright colours, toggle switches and clunky buttons of TOS to the hotel lobby of TNG to the bright lights and swirly animated touchscreens of the new movies - it's all the whim of futuristic artist/designers.
In a Mirror, Darkly is my favorite ENT episode. I loved that they pulled an entire starship out of a TOS episode. It was Christmas.

I get the crew's reaction of awe and wonder. But that has to happen in order for the episode to feel credible. Suspension of disbelief was dialed to 11 and I didn't care.
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Old July 23 2014, 04:31 AM   #32
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Trek Survivor wrote: View Post
Very good point. People need to get over this and invoke suspension of disbelief. TOS was filmed in the 1960s - to demand a 'prequel' series filmed 35 years later to hold exactly to what was presented in terms of a technological future then would be silly.
Yet they could easily have made Enterprise technology functionally more primitive to the Original Trek's. This is a job for the writer's bible, not the art direction. (I should note, I think that cramped controls with lots of buttons is suggestive of more primitive designs; advancements in design tend to produce sleeker, simpler-looking devices with smoother interfaces. So I tend to think that, for example, the NX-01 Enterprise bridge did succeed in looking more primitive than the NCC-1701 bridge, entirely because it was darker and more claustrophobic.)

For example, what if there's not a way to be precisely sure what warp they achieve after firing up the engines? They aim for, say, warp four, but don't know if they're going to get warp 3.5 or warp 4.8 or whatnot. What if after they drop out of warp they need (say) twelve hours to recharge the engines?

(Why do that? Because then you can have a story where the ship is chasing, or being chased, and the Captain has to decide whether the hazard of being a sitting duck for the recharge time is worth it. The point is, it shows technology that works more primitively than later Trek did, and it opens up story fodder that later Trek didn't have.)

What if the phase pistols don't have stun settings --- or don't have kill settings, or can only be used twice (or whatever) without a recharge time? You can force the characters to make decisions that later Trek couldn't do, and base it on ways the technology isn't as advanced as seen on the Original Series.
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Old July 23 2014, 03:54 PM   #33
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Yeah, there were basically two problems:

1) What was shown in ENT (certain technologies) were superior to TOS.
You can't have eighteen years or whatever it was with a consistent timeline of these things and then tell your audience "actually, no, everything changes".

2) The 'kitch-asthetic' of TOS had already been canonized by TNG/DS9/VOY era productions.
This one is far more insidious. Basically we could have simply accepted a 'cosmic retcon' of TOS, perhaps assuming tha the tech seen in TMP and TWOK represented what TOS "really" looked like. But instead we got future versions of Trek, like TNG's Relics or DS9's Trials and Tribbleations, which basically canonized TOS into the time frame. So I *don't* think it's unreasonable for the fandom to be slightly pissed that the 'prequel' didn't fit.

Frankly if I were the bean counters and my brief was "Make a new Star Trek show that has to recapture a TOS timeframe and feature a Starship Enterprise", then my first choice would be doing a show based on 1701-B. But maybe that's just me.
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Old July 24 2014, 03:40 AM   #34
Nerys Myk
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Lance wrote: View Post
Yeah, there were basically two problems:

1) What was shown in ENT (certain technologies) were superior to TOS.
You can't have eighteen years or whatever it was with a consistent timeline of these things and then tell your audience "actually, no, everything changes".

2) The 'kitch-asthetic' of TOS had already been canonized by TNG/DS9/VOY era productions.
This one is far more insidious. Basically we could have simply accepted a 'cosmic retcon' of TOS, perhaps assuming tha the tech seen in TMP and TWOK represented what TOS "really" looked like. But instead we got future versions of Trek, like TNG's Relics or DS9's Trials and Tribbleations, which basically canonized TOS into the time frame. So I *don't* think it's unreasonable for the fandom to be slightly pissed that the 'prequel' didn't fit.

Frankly if I were the bean counters and my brief was "Make a new Star Trek show that has to recapture a TOS timeframe and feature a Starship Enterprise", then my first choice would be doing a show based on 1701-B. But maybe that's just me.
The answer to both is "it's a TV show". The look of the tech is going to reflect the 2000s not the 60s or 80s. The creators also tried to keep the tech on par or more primitive that TOS. Sometimes it was just a hand wave with the nomenclature, but it was there.
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Old July 24 2014, 04:34 AM   #35
Lance
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

It's like I say, the problem is that 'modern Trek' had already canonized the look of TOS as being 'official'.

I remember back in the late 1980s and early 1990s there was a groundswell of opinion that maybe 60s Trek was just a reflection of the period in which it was made, and that the movies represented the look of 23rd century tech the way it "really" was even in TOS (aka the 'retcon theory').

But then we started getting scenes like Scotty on the holodeck in 'Relics', and suddenly the only feasible explanation was "So 23rd century Trek during the TOS period really did look like TOS".

And having established that, the DS9 team ran with it in "Trials and Tribbleations", and the ENT production team basically did the same thing with "In A Mirror Darkly" as well.

Ultimately I think if more concessions had been made to make ENT look 'pre-TOS', maybe with a stylized 1950s or 1940s sci-fi asthetic rather than the 1960s one of TOS, then it would have given ENT a unique look while still feeling adequately pre-TOS in design.

The reality though is that no matter what you do in a prequel you're screwed (as George Lucas found out too). Which is why personally if I wanted to recapture TOS with a new series, I'd have set it on the 1701-B from the movies. That way they could have done 'prequel' and taken things back a notch, while still giving the audience satisfaction in a series which could fit the parameters of established Trek.
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Old July 24 2014, 04:59 AM   #36
Nerys Myk
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Ultimately I think if more concessions had been made to make ENT look 'pre-TOS', maybe with a stylized 1950s or 1940s sci-fi asthetic rather than the 1960s one of TOS, then it would have given ENT a unique look while still feeling adequately pre-TOS in design.
I've never understood this line of thought. Giving it a 50s sf aesthetic seems too "on the nose" and shouts "It's a fake!!!!!".

The Enterprise aesthetic while having nods to TOS, is also an extrapolation of the styles of the late 20th/early 21st Centuries. That makes more sense to me than going deliberately "retro" because TOS was influenced by then contemporary styles.
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Old July 24 2014, 05:14 AM   #37
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Ultimately I think if more concessions had been made to make ENT look 'pre-TOS', maybe with a stylized 1950s or 1940s sci-fi asthetic rather than the 1960s one of TOS, then it would have given ENT a unique look while still feeling adequately pre-TOS in design.
I've never understood this line of thought. Giving it a 50s sf aesthetic seems too "on the nose" and shouts "It's a fake!!!!!".

The Enterprise aesthetic while having nods to TOS, is also an extrapolation of the styles of the late 20th/early 21st Centuries. That makes more sense to me than going deliberately "retro" because TOS was influenced by then contemporary styles.
^This

I recall an interview Rick Berman gave saying that going in to ENT; they were making an aesthetic that would look futuristic from where we are now. At the time that was 2001. Going retro to be more lock step with a 1960's show would've been a mistake.
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Old July 24 2014, 06:31 AM   #38
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

The end result is a show which doesn't feel adequately like a prequel to TOS, though.

That's one of the criticisms people make about ENT.

Personally I think this is why prequels simply don't work. By making the decision to go backwards, no matter what you do with it you're not going to please everybody.

I can't think of a single prequel in history that actually managed to actually feel adequately like it comes before whatever it is it was supposed to come before.

I can appreciate why ENT is the way it is, but like all prequels it falls at the first hurdle by not being able to account for those aesthetic differences, given that TNG/DS9/VOY (and indeed ENT itself) went out of their way to say that the 'sixties kitsch' aesthetic of TOS is sacrosanct and really did happen.

Making a prequel is a no-win scenario.
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Old July 24 2014, 07:02 AM   #39
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

^ Well in that regard, ENT is an ideal prequel for the JJ films. From LCD monitors and bulk consoles to the Apple Store look of the JJprise. Complete with touchscreen consoles, tablets, and a whole lot of bright white light on the bridge.


ENT as a prequel to TOS is fine because they never went in to the details of how tech worked in TOS. It was all buttons, blinking lights and switches. Just embrace it as a prequel made decades after the original source.
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Old July 24 2014, 07:14 AM   #40
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Enterprise is a prequel to both TOS and NuTrek. It works equally well either way.
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Old July 24 2014, 07:22 AM   #41
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

TOS style could be call "the whim of a Federation interior designer". It was a different time. Maybe they felt like they could make things colorful and such. To get away from the retro-NASA look of Archer's ship and its kin.
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Old July 24 2014, 07:41 AM   #42
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Lance wrote: View Post

I can't think of a single prequel in history that actually managed to actually feel adequately like it comes before whatever it is it was supposed to come before.
Temple of Doom?
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Old July 24 2014, 07:48 AM   #43
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Lance wrote: View Post
The end result is a show which doesn't feel adequately like a prequel to TOS, though.

That's one of the criticisms people make about ENT.

Personally I think this is why prequels simply don't work. By making the decision to go backwards, no matter what you do with it you're not going to please everybody.

I can't think of a single prequel in history that actually managed to actually feel adequately like it comes before whatever it is it was supposed to come before.

I can appreciate why ENT is the way it is, but like all prequels it falls at the first hurdle by not being able to account for those aesthetic differences, given that TNG/DS9/VOY (and indeed ENT itself) went out of their way to say that the 'sixties kitsch' aesthetic of TOS is sacrosanct and really did happen.

Making a prequel is a no-win scenario.
It's not like Trek's sequels were a constant evolution either. The Enterprise-D had few and very minimalistic consoles - yet in Generations they add on a ton more (because it looks cool) and the Enterprise-E not only has even more consoles everywhere, but brings back the style of panel from STV's Enterprise-A a century prior. Ships more advanced than Voyager use the old Enterprise-A/Excelsior bridge set with only minor modifications.
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Old July 24 2014, 01:52 PM   #44
Lance
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Well in that regard, ENT is an ideal prequel for the JJ films.
On this we agree. I actually think the JJ films are what TOS would have been like had it actually been made after ENT.
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Old July 24 2014, 05:14 PM   #45
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Re: Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?

Captrek wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post

I can't think of a single prequel in history that actually managed to actually feel adequately like it comes before whatever it is it was supposed to come before.
Temple of Doom?
I never knew this was supposed to be a prequel until I read about it in some internet forum.
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