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Old July 21 2014, 11:14 AM   #16
LordMudd
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Re: Legal ?

What about individuals who come from non member worlds but may wish to remain in the Federation? (Who Watches the Watchers) Would there be Federation citizenship? What would the advantages be? Disadvantages? Could a citizen of a member world opt out for Federation citizenship?

CCC.
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Old July 21 2014, 03:29 PM   #17
T'Girl
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Re: Legal ?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Member worlds might be free to run their own affairs as they see fit, but that doesn't preculde them having to abdie by Federation Laws as well as their own.
These aren't some dirty water third world countries, the members are high tech, warp capable, advanced planetary civilizations. There are few (if any) laws that they would need from the Federation Council. If they need a new law, they'll pass one without the Federation's input.

I doubt the UK needs the UN's assistance in deciding on new laws.

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Old July 22 2014, 12:18 AM   #18
TheCegorach
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Re: Legal ?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Member worlds might be free to run their own affairs as they see fit, but that doesn't preculde them having to abdie by Federation Laws as well as their own.
These aren't some dirty water third world countries, the members are high tech, warp capable, advanced planetary civilizations. There are few (if any) laws that they would need from the Federation Council. If they need a new law, they'll pass one without the Federation's input.

I doubt the UK needs the UN's assistance in deciding on new laws.

Most nations today have ceded varying degrees of sovereignty to international organizations like the UN or to various treaty regimes. I would imagine the same is true in the case of Federation worlds.

For instance, having ratified the UN Convention on Laws Of the Sea, the UK actually /does/ have to keep the UN in mind if it wishes to to make new maritime laws. It cannot arbitrarily legislate new definitions of territorial waters or maritime economic zones, for instance.

Plenty of other examples could be found for other areas of law, and again, by analogy, the same could be expected to be true of Federation worlds. Consider also the EU, which even more than the UN, supercedes the authority of its member states in several areas (trade law, immigration law, and I think key parts of health and environmental law, as well).
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Old July 22 2014, 03:32 PM   #19
T'Girl
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Re: Legal ?

But the UN didn't decide that the UK would ratify the treaty, however I see your point. The Members would have to take into consideration existing interstellar agreements (or withdrawl from them).



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Old July 22 2014, 05:08 PM   #20
MacLeod
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Re: Legal ?

But as had been pointed out EU law can supercede national law within it's member nations, and isn't it the case even in the USA Federal Law can at times trump State law?
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Old July 22 2014, 06:14 PM   #21
T'Girl
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Re: Legal ?

That would presuppose that the Members governments and peoples are subordinate to the Federation Council. As oppose to the Members being sovereign entities that have agreed to form a subordinate interstellar body with a limited number of duties and powers.

The Federation as Kirk described it in Spectrum of the Gun.

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Old July 22 2014, 06:42 PM   #22
MacLeod
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Re: Legal ?

Of course the uFP as described by Kirk could be different than the UFP of Picard's era.
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Old July 22 2014, 11:15 PM   #23
T'Girl
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Re: Legal ?

And then there's Daniels' description of the UFP in the 26th century ... which is the same as Kirk's description of the UFP in the 23rd.



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Old July 23 2014, 11:24 PM   #24
LordMudd
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Re: Legal ?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
And then there's Daniels' description of the UFP in the 26th century ... which is the same as Kirk's description of the UFP in the 23rd.
which may no longer exist, thanks to Spock...

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Old July 23 2014, 11:39 PM   #25
C.E. Evans
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Re: Legal ?

LordMudd wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
And then there's Daniels' description of the UFP in the 26th century ... which is the same as Kirk's description of the UFP in the 23rd.
which may no longer exist, thanks to Spock...
More likely thanks to Archer...

But I think it's more a case of the future never being written in stone.
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Old July 25 2014, 05:19 AM   #26
Avro Arrow
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Re: Legal ?

LordMudd wrote: View Post
Knowing I am not the only former military person here...

The military has a system for administering justice, the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice), and the JAG ( Judge Advocate General) is responsible for doing so, and, we know Starfleet has a JAG, from Court Martial and The Measure of A Man, which suddenly made me think- what would it be called in Star Trek, the UCSJ?

CCC.
I don't think we have a canonical answer to this, but we've seen a couple of non-canonical options in the novels:

- Captain's Peril (2002) by William Shatner and Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens used the Uniform Code of Starfleet Justice, as you suggested above.

- Destiny Book I: Gods of Night (2008) by David Mack went with Starfleet Code of Military Justice.

I'd probably tend to go with SCMJ myself, since a) it sounds better, and b) it was from Destiny, and Destiny = awesome.
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Old July 26 2014, 05:10 PM   #27
T'Girl
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Re: Legal ?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Destiny Book I: Gods of Night (2008) by David Mack went with Starfleet Code of Military Justice.

I'd probably tend to go with SCMJ myself, since a) it sounds better, and b) it was from Destiny, and Destiny = awesome.
So if Colonel West was a "Marine" and there is a "Marine Corp" (Starmaines?) then they would have a separate code of military justice?

Which would be fine, we basically had that for over half of the history of the United States.

And what about the Federation maritime patrol? And if the Member do maintain their own "home fleets" what about them. If we aren't employing unified, and we are stipulating Starfleet.


David Mack went with Starfleet Code of Military Justice.
One section of the SCMJ charges chief medical officers to not allow, either by action or omission of action, personnel under their medical charge to bring themselves to harm or death.
So how would that have work in a situation like the one where Deanna Troi ordered (holographic) LaForge into a radioactive chamber in order to effect a critical repair, the entire ship's company is under the charge of the medical department. Sometimes people are going to be harmed on assignment, and sometimes knowingly sent to their deaths.

Doctor: "Captain I'm afraid I can't allow you to take the ship into combat, someone might be injured."


Last edited by T'Girl; July 26 2014 at 05:22 PM.
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Old July 27 2014, 03:41 AM   #28
Avro Arrow
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Re: Legal ?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Destiny Book I: Gods of Night (2008) by David Mack went with Starfleet Code of Military Justice.

I'd probably tend to go with SCMJ myself, since a) it sounds better, and b) it was from Destiny, and Destiny = awesome.
So if Colonel West was a "Marine" and there is a "Marine Corp" (Starmaines?) then they would have a separate code of military justice?
Well, I think the name I've seen for this postulated marine corp is "Starfleet Marine Corps", so they'd fit under the SCMJ without any problems!

And what about the Federation maritime patrol?
I don't know much about them, but it sounds possible that they are a Federation civilian agency? At any rate, since they're not Starfleet, they presumably wouldn't fall under the code, since either version has "Starfleet" in the title.

And if the Member do maintain their own "home fleets" what about them. If we aren't employing unified, and we are stipulating Starfleet.
I would assume that each member world would have their own justice code that would cover their home fleets.

David Mack went with Starfleet Code of Military Justice.
One section of the SCMJ charges chief medical officers to not allow, either by action or omission of action, personnel under their medical charge to bring themselves to harm or death.
So how would that have work in a situation like the one where Deanna Troi ordered (holographic) LaForge into a radioactive chamber in order to effect a critical repair, the entire ship's company is under the charge of the medical department. Sometimes people are going to be harmed on assignment, and sometimes knowingly sent to their deaths.

Doctor: "Captain I'm afraid I can't allow you to take the ship into combat, someone might be injured."

I'm guessing the intent was a much narrower definition of "under their medical charge" than what you've written here. Presumably it would refer to people actually receiving medical care at the time?
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Old July 27 2014, 09:28 AM   #29
T'Girl
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Re: Legal ?

^ Works for me, with the exception that I believe organizationally the Marines would be separate from the Fleet.



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Old July 30 2014, 02:15 AM   #30
LordMudd
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Re: Legal ?

In Enterprise the MAKOs were seperate and had to be authorized access. On TOS we only saw Starfleet security. In TMP we saw Perez in the "football" armor, which we could assume meant he was a marine, although in ST3, Sulu called them "agents."

"Side elevator, agents on their way up...don't call me tiny."

Again in TNG we only saw 'fleet security.

Starfleet vessels, for all of their military responsibilities, are still exploratory and diplomatic vessels, and Marines would be purely military.

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