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Old July 19 2014, 08:31 PM   #1
LordMudd
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Legal ?

Knowing I am not the only former military person here...

The military has a system for administering justice, the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice), and the JAG ( Judge Advocate General) is responsible for doing so, and, we know Starfleet has a JAG, from Court Martial and The Measure of A Man, which suddenly made me think- what would it be called in Star Trek, the UCSJ?

CCC.
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Old July 19 2014, 08:49 PM   #2
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: Legal ?

Or maybe just the Starfleet Code of Justice. As the poster below points out, if there's only Starfleet, then there's no need for a word like 'Uniform.'
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Old July 19 2014, 08:51 PM   #3
J.T.B.
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Re: Legal ?

LordMudd wrote: View Post
Knowing I am not the only former military person here...

The military has a system for administering justice, the UCMJ ( Uniform Code of Military Justice), and the JAG ( Judge Advocate General) is responsible for doing so, and, we know Starfleet has a JAG, from Court Martial and The Measure of A Man, which suddenly made me think- what would it be called in Star Trek, the UCSJ?
I have no idea what the the code would be called. It may not need the term "uniform," which came from unifying the different services' justice systems after WW2. But whatever it's called, they system shown in "Court Martial" always bugs me. The convening authority is also the investigator and president of the court? That's sort of like the police detective, the DA and the trial judge being all the same person. I know, they had to combine speaking parts, but still.
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Old July 19 2014, 08:53 PM   #4
MacLeod
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Re: Legal ?

Now I might be mistaken but in the USA, JAG is responsible for administering justice, whilst the UCMJ lays out the rules and regulations that military personal have to abide by, in addition to any local laws.

In the case of Starfleet wouldn't this be Starfleet General Orders and Regulations.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star...nd_Regulations
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Old July 19 2014, 08:55 PM   #5
C.E. Evans
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Re: Legal ?

I think with Starfleet being a bit different, it has been commonly referred to simply as Starfleet Regulations, although sometimes it falls under some Starfleet General Orders as well.
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Old July 19 2014, 09:12 PM   #6
LordMudd
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Re: Legal ?

OK, but what about the MAKOs from Enterprise. They were a lot like the Marines to Starfleet's Navy? Were they eventually absorbed into Starfleet or do we just not see them anymore?

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Old July 19 2014, 09:20 PM   #7
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Re: Legal ?

LordMudd wrote: View Post
OK, but what about the MAKOs from Enterprise. They were a lot like the Marines to Starfleet's Navy? Were they eventually absorbed into Starfleet or do we just not see them anymore?

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If you look at their patches you'll see some elements that were adopted by Starfleet.
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Old July 19 2014, 09:21 PM   #8
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: Legal ?

There might also be some form of Federation Justice System that governs Starfleet regulations.

A criminal might be subject to charges of violating Starfleet, Federation, and local planetary laws all in a single arrest.
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Old July 19 2014, 10:24 PM   #9
MacLeod
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Re: Legal ?

Melakon wrote: View Post
There might also be some form of Federation Justice System that governs Starfleet regulations.

A criminal might be subject to charges of violating Starfleet, Federation, and local planetary laws all in a single arrest.
Who would have jurisdiction in that case? Or would it simply go to which ever law is the highest level. I.e Federation?
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Old July 20 2014, 08:55 AM   #10
LordMudd
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Re: Legal ?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
There might also be some form of Federation Justice System that governs Starfleet regulations.

A criminal might be subject to charges of violating Starfleet, Federation, and local planetary laws all in a single arrest.
Who would have jurisdiction in that case? Or would it simply go to which ever law is the highest level. I.e Federation?
I would assume that the Federation can make no law that contradicts any law of a member world. Example: Polygamy may be illegal on most Federation worlds, but is legal on Denobula. Do you force them to change to fit in? I would also assume that there would be options for off world enforcement of planetary laws, for example: a human or Andorian moving to Denobula thinking they can then practice polygamy. Because they are still citizens of their own world, their laws apply.

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Old July 20 2014, 12:00 PM   #11
MacLeod
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Re: Legal ?

And I could just as easily assume that Federation law supercedes any local laws. Sure UFP member worlds might have great autonomy but what happens if someone appeals a legal decision does it end with that member's highest court or can it be escalted to an even higher UFP court?
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Old July 20 2014, 05:55 PM   #12
Merry Christmas
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Re: Legal ?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
And I could just as easily assume that Federation law supercedes any local laws.
Just the opposite.

In Cloud Minders the planet's head of government reminded Captain Kirk that Federation law doesn't supersede local law.

LordMudd wrote: View Post
for example: a human or Andorian moving to Denobula thinking they can then practice polygamy. Because they are still citizens of their own world, their laws apply.
Another example would be Bashir's parents taking him off Earth to have his intelligence increased, they still violated Earth law.

Polygamy may be illegal on most Federation worlds, but is legal on Denobula. Do you force them to change to fit in?
Vulcan and Betazed both have arranged marriages of children. Earth might still have it as well, just as we do today. Could a group of Federation Members who don't have such an institution put forward a law in the Federation Council to forbid it? I would think no.

LordMudd wrote: View Post
OK, but what about the MAKOs from Enterprise. They were a lot like the Marines to Starfleet's Navy?
There was also a Colonel West in TUC, obviously possessed a rank outside Starfleet's rank system. Perhaps a Marine (or Army) equivalent. If so, then there could be a "uniformed" justice system.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Who would have jurisdiction in that case? Or would it simply go to which ever law is the highest level. I.e Federation?
It would depend on where the offense occurred. If it were inside a given Members jurisdiction the Federation would have no authority.

If it were outside that jurisdiction - say in open interstellar space - then the Federation would have jurisdiction.

Or if two Members both claimed jurisdiction, the Federation would assist in determining who has jurisdiction, but the Federation wouldn't be involved passed that determination.




Last edited by Merry Christmas; July 20 2014 at 06:30 PM.
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Old July 20 2014, 06:16 PM   #13
MacLeod
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Re: Legal ?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
And I could just as easily assume that Federation law supercedes any local laws.
Just the opposite.

In Cloud Minders the planet's head of government reminded Captain Kirk that Federation law doesn't supersede local law.

LordMudd wrote: View Post
for example: a human or Andorian moving to Denobula thinking they can then practice polygamy. Because they are still citizens of their own world, their laws apply.
Another example would be Bashir's parents taking him off Earth to have his intelligence increased, they still violated Earth law.

Polygamy may be illegal on most Federation worlds, but is legal on Denobula. Do you force them to change to fit in?
Vulcan and Betazed both have arranged marriages of children. Earth might still have it as well, just as we do today. Could a group of Federation Members who don't have such an institution put forward a law in the Federation Council to forbid it? I would think no.

Yes of course they could put forward a law in the Federation Council to forbid it. Doesn't mean it would pass or hold upto a legal challange through the Federation courts.

As for the example in "The Cloud Minders", I thought the line was more along 'You're Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments' but it has been quite a while since I watched the episode. So in theory a governmetn could thing an order was illegal that doesn't mean it was the case. Besides earlier in that very same episode didn't Ardana's ruling council have a legal responsibiltey to another and to assist another and to see that nothing interefered with that?
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Last edited by MacLeod; July 21 2014 at 10:02 AM.
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Old July 21 2014, 05:26 AM   #14
Merry Christmas
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Re: Legal ?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
As for the example in "The Cloud Minders", I thought the line was more along 'You're Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments' but it has been quite a while since I watched the episode.
What I pulled from that line is that all Federation Members are the masters of their own domains. That doesn't mean Ardana didn't have an obligation (treaty obligation?) to Merek Two in their time of need to deliver zenite. One Member assisting another.

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Old July 21 2014, 10:06 AM   #15
MacLeod
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Re: Legal ?

Member worlds might be free to run their own affairs as they see fit, but that doesn't preculde them having to abdie by Federation Laws as well as their own.
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