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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old July 18 2014, 01:35 AM   #31
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Vorlon: "... ... ... The cheesecake crumbles, unless it is a Thursday".

Human: "... ... Okay, we're writing down Empire".


Trying to get a straight answer out of Kosh...not fun.

Although maybe this means that Vorlons are really good at Fizzbin?
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Old July 18 2014, 06:07 AM   #32
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Perhaps it's similar to the Centauri Emperor. Maybe the Emperor is not an emperor in the legal sense, just in the reality sense -- someone who holds absolute power over the Centauri state by holding multiple offices that used to be held by separate persons in a genuinely republican era. Maybe his real titles would be, "Presiding Officer of the Centaurum, High Commander of the Space Navy, Supreme Pontiff of the Church of the Great Maker, Chief Magistrate of All Centauri," etc. And perhaps when we hear him called "Emperor," we're hearing an English translation decided upon by political scientists and linguists from the Earth Alliance, who said, "Um, yeah, he's an emperor. We're just gonna call him that, thanks."
As ever, I'm glad for your input on these matters, Sci.
Too kind. Thank you!

I guess it was a bit silly of me not to consider the all-important translation issues in my posts above. As you say, we must (presumably) assume that we're hearing translated titles that might not reflect the truth of the situation but simply how human observers of a certain dominant human culture interpret what they're seeing or being told of an alien political role.
Or, for that matter, we may be hearing translated titles that far more accurately reflect the truth of the situation than the interpretations of the dominant alien culture!

Sci wrote: View Post
Possibly a simpler explanation: Maybe a better translation would be Vorlon Realm, but the Vorlon term for realm and empire is the same -- you know, sort of the way the German word for both realm and empire is reich? (Godwin'ed!)
On that note, did we ever hear a Vorlon refer to their own state as the Vorlon Empire? They don't seem to mind being called that, and I think the B5 Council recognises them as such, but mostly it was just humans calling it that. And they likely wouldn't care what they were called so long as nobody was going into it uninvited.

Human: "So, what's the name of your state? We do actually need to know".

Vorlon: "... ...."

Human: "No, seriously. We can't complete this until we have it".

Vorlon: ".... We are Vorlon".

Human: "What is your territory called?"

Vorlon: "... ..."

Human: "The Vorlon.... Federation? Alliance? Empire?"

Vorlon: "Yes".

Human: "Empire? The Vorlon Empire?"

Vorlon: "... ... ... The cheesecake crumbles, unless it is a Thursday".

Human: "... ... Okay, we're writing down Empire".




Excellent! As far as I'm concerned, that's my new headcanon!

And actually, that is a legit possibility. The Vorlons might literally not have any sort of name for their state that is translatable into Human language, and "Vorlon Empire" could well be a Human (or Centauri, then translated into English) term.
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Old July 18 2014, 09:39 AM   #33
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

There's one more with a unique name, the Delta Quadrant state Krowtonan Guard.

Other than that, we get the Delta Coalition (MyrU: "Places of Exile"), Romulan Republic (STO), Romulan Republic (mirror) [Shattered Universe], Borg Collective, etc.

Only some of the Federation member states are on record. A great mystery is what the Trill call theirs.

Btw, has there ever been a reference to the Nausicaan or Lethean states? Do they have any? (I also wonder whether the Letheans' homeworld would be Lethe or Lethea).
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Old July 18 2014, 02:02 PM   #34
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

The Borg Collective isn't a government, though. It's a single individual.
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Old July 18 2014, 05:25 PM   #35
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how you could use "Colonies" as the name of a sovereign state, because a colony is by definition a non-sovereign territory under the control of another state.
The name could have just stuck, like people still refer to the original 13 states of the USA as the Thirteen Colonies.

Or like in BSG with The Twelve Colonies of Kobol, where the original place that colonized everything doesn't exist anymore.
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Old July 18 2014, 05:44 PM   #36
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

dodge wrote: View Post
The name could have just stuck, like people still refer to the original 13 states of the USA as the Thirteen Colonies.
The point is that that's just a nickname for a portion of the country, not the official name of the entire country.


Or like in BSG with The Twelve Colonies of Kobol, where the original place that colonized everything doesn't exist anymore.
Well, I suppose if they built a lot of their identity on being offshoots of the mother culture, they might choose that name, but it's an anomalous usage.
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Old July 18 2014, 09:16 PM   #37
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

So, I just went over Wikipedia's lists of sovereign states and former sovereign states. And from this list, I think I've put together a decent list of sovereign state titles not yet taken in ST (not counting Federation Member States), along with some adjectival modifiers:

State Titles

Chiefdom (of)
Commonwealth (of)
Confederacy (of)
Confederation (of)
Despotate (of)
Duchy (of)
Dynasty (of)
Emirates (of)
Federacy (of)
Kingdom (of)
Lordship (of)
Nation (of)
Prince-Bishopric (of)
Principality (of)
Provinces (of)
State (of)
States (of)
Sultanate (of)
Territory (of)
Tsardom (of)
Union (of)

Side-notes: The formation "(Adjective) Republic of" is untaken, though the Talarian Republic has taken the "(Adjective) Republic" formation. The formation "Dominion of (Name)" is untaken, though the Dominion has taken the formation of, well, "the Dominion."

Open adjectives: "Islamic;" "People's Democratic;" "People's Republic;" "Plurinational;" ", Abode of Peace;" "Republic of the Union of;" "Democratic People's Republic;" "Democratic;" "Arab;" "Federal Democratic;" "Federal;" "Co-operative;" "Hashemite;" "People's Democratic;" "Independent;" "Democratic Socialist;" "United;" "Oriental;" "Bolivarian;" "Socialist;" "Federated;" "Grand;" "Most Serene;" "Free;" "Soviet;" "Workers';" "Holy Roman;" "Sovereign;" "Military;" "Papal;" "Autonomous;" "State Union;" "People's Socialist;" "Federative;" "Democratic Federative;" "Great;" "Princely"
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Old July 18 2014, 09:41 PM   #38
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

The answer to the Trill question must lie in there somewhere.

I propose: The People's Most Serene Great United Socialist Democratic Co-Operative Federative Sovereign State Union of Trill.

Every time a new president is elected, he or she is permitted to add another word, just as a new host adds something to the existing Joined lineage. There's terrible unrest over whether Durghan gets to add a word, rather than Maz having already covered it.

Durghan is considering adding a "Really", reportedly. Quite where she'll place it and what she's implying there, is up for debate.
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Old July 18 2014, 11:08 PM   #39
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Christopher wrote: View Post
but it's an anomalous usage.
Anomalous usage is not an uncommon thing in Star Trek.

Dominion is not a dominion, United Federation of Planets is technically more of a confederacy, Breen are by everything seen and written much more likely to be a unitary state than a confederacy, and none of the major empires have an actual emperor...
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Old July 19 2014, 01:28 AM   #40
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Markonian wrote: View Post

Only some of the Federation member states are on record. A great mystery is what the Trill call theirs.
I swore I remembered a reference to the Republic of Trill somewhere, but I couldn't find anything about it on Memory Beta, and nobody here has mentioned it, so I might be mistaken.
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Old July 19 2014, 05:05 AM   #41
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

I hope a Star Trek author picks one and uses it in a soon to be published novel.

After all, someone's got to give an update on whether all those joined morons actually learned from the 2376 crisis.
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Old July 19 2014, 05:58 AM   #42
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
The answer to the Trill question must lie in there somewhere.

I propose: The People's Most Serene Great United Socialist Democratic Co-Operative Federative Sovereign State Union of Trill.

Every time a new president is elected, he or she is permitted to add another word, just as a new host adds something to the existing Joined lineage. There's terrible unrest over whether Durghan gets to add a word, rather than Maz having already covered it.

Durghan is considering adding a "Really", reportedly. Quite where she'll place it and what she's implying there, is up for debate.


dodge wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
but it's an anomalous usage.
Anomalous usage is not an uncommon thing in Star Trek.

Dominion is not a dominion,
Well -- not a self-governing region of the British Empire, no. But it's quite possible that the term might have an analogous meaning. We usually think of the Founders as being the heads of the Dominion, but maybe they were to the Dominion as the British Crown was to the dominions of the British Empire. Maybe under their own law, the Dominion does not regard itself as having sovereignty, but as a polity that is self-governing, but is under the sovereignty of the Great Link itself? Maybe the Dominion thinks of the Link as being sovereign and itself as being merely one of the Link's.... dominions?

United Federation of Planets is technically more of a confederacy,
This idea gets thrown around a lot, but I never see anyone really back it up.

Breen are by everything seen and written much more likely to be a unitary state than a confederacy,
I don't think we've seen enough about how the constituent worlds of the Breen Confederacy interact with each-other to make that determination.

and none of the major empires have an actual emperor...
1. The term empire encompasses polities that have conquered or dominated other polities for their own enrichment without having their own imperial monarchies. The United States, for instance, is often referred to as an American Empire.

2. Kahless II has reigned as Klingon Emperor since 2369, and Shiarkeik reigned as Romulan Emperor until he was assassinated in 2374 (though it is true that the Senate has not placed anyone on the throne since then). And the Gorn Hegemony remains under the leadership of Imperator Sozzerozs.

JD wrote: View Post
Markonian wrote: View Post

Only some of the Federation member states are on record. A great mystery is what the Trill call theirs.
I swore I remembered a reference to the Republic of Trill somewhere, but I couldn't find anything about it on Memory Beta, and nobody here has mentioned it, so I might be mistaken.
Star Trek: Star Charts established it to be the Trill Symbiosis, but I think most everyone agrees this is an awful name. I always think of it either as the Trill Union, or as simply Trill, but that's just my speculation.
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Old July 19 2014, 03:24 PM   #43
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Sci wrote: View Post
dodge wrote: View Post
United Federation of Planets is technically more of a confederacy,
This idea gets thrown around a lot, but I never see anyone really back it up.
Member worlds hold sovereignty and can leave at any time.
Other than defence and arguably foreign affairs the central goverment's influence on those worlds is by all accounts virtually nonexistent. We've seen different Federation worlds have various legal, political and economic systems... hence confederacy.
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Old July 19 2014, 06:24 PM   #44
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

There're also Taurus and Typhon Pact. That's a name lending itself to be copied over and over, (Nebula) + 'Pact'.
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Old July 19 2014, 06:56 PM   #45
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Re: That Name's Taken! You can be "Emirates"...

Except neither of those is a nebula. Taurus is a constellation, and Typhon is an "expanse," whatever that is.
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